Octagon of worth

[SirokiFighter]

Originally Posted by XDEATHGOD

from my experience at my old school, and a couple of mma gyms i went to and was going to for a while, my old tkd school was much harder/tougher. and honestly had better fighters. i went to a muay thai class and i was disssapointed. they couldnot fight at all, all of them were ok at jiujitsu but could not strike. they thought they were aweome fighters because they lifted weights but they wernt good strikers at all. they couldnt kick at all, really all they threw were round kicks and they were slow ugly round kicks it was like watered down muay thai, really. there were a few good boxers. this was at the gracie sports center, and at the brentwood mma schools it was the same. might i say that the gracie sports center is considered one of the best mma schools in the US?

i guess i would put my money on a mma guy because they train grappling but thats the only reason why?

wow. it was that bad?

[XDEATHGOD]

pretty much, yes.

[WC_Lun]

I'm on a bit of pain meds this eve, so if I rample a bit, please forgive me. I first see, lets take this MMA guy and take him to a TKD dojo to see who fights better. If you were to get something like this going, you would be comparing very little of the real systems these martial arts are based upon on, but more the sport they have turned into, In this case, even the hardest training martial arts would still fight under the ruleset they have been training. Add a third person to the mix, a man that trained real life military special forces training. Do you see how rules, training types, work out methods, what the martial art has been trained to do, all will limit a true expression of fighting art. There is nothing wrong with this because these three different 'styles' are taught and trained for 3 different end results, all equally as legitamate for how they are being used. The problem comes along when someone can't see the diferences between them and think if they fight, the winner would be best...best at what? Why does it even matter? If your looking for the ulimate street self defense system, they aren't going to put themselves in a position where they have to enforce thier knowledge. There's no pay day in it.

If your not happy with what your training is giving you then YOU must change something. Find what it is you want and find a teacher that is a good person as well as teacher that can give you that. Don't look for some fight of the centuray to tell you things you can already figure out.

[XDEATHGOD]

Originally Posted by WC_Lun

I'm on a bit of pain meds this eve, so if I rample a bit, please forgive me. I first see, lets take this MMA guy and take him to a TKD dojo to see who fights better. If you were to get something like this going, you would be comparing very little of the real systems these martial arts are based upon on, but more the sport they have turned into, In this case, even the hardest training martial arts would still fight under the ruleset they have been training. Add a third person to the mix, a man that trained real life military special forces training. Do you see how rules, training types, work out methods, what the martial art has been trained to do, all will limit a true expression of fighting art. There is nothing wrong with this because these three different 'styles' are taught and trained for 3 different end results, all equally as legitamate for how they are being used. The problem comes along when someone can't see the diferences between them and think if they fight, the winner would be best...best at what? Why does it even matter? If your looking for the ulimate street self defense system, they aren't going to put themselves in a position where they have to enforce thier knowledge. There's no pay day in it.

If your not happy with what your training is giving you then YOU must change something. Find what it is you want and find a teacher that is a good person as well as teacher that can give you that. Don't look for some fight of the centuray to tell you things you can already figure out.

who me?????

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by WC_Lun

I'm on a bit of pain meds this eve, so if I rample a bit, please forgive me. I first see, lets take this MMA guy and take him to a TKD dojo to see who fights better. If you were to get something like this going, you would be comparing very little of the real systems these martial arts are based upon on, but more the sport they have turned into, In this case, even the hardest training martial arts would still fight under the ruleset they have been training. Add a third person to the mix, a man that trained real life military special forces training. Do you see how rules, training types, work out methods, what the martial art has been trained to do, all will limit a true expression of fighting art. There is nothing wrong with this because these three different 'styles' are taught and trained for 3 different end results, all equally as legitamate for how they are being used. The problem comes along when someone can't see the diferences between them and think if they fight, the winner would be best...best at what? Why does it even matter? If your looking for the ulimate street self defense system, they aren't going to put themselves in a position where they have to enforce thier knowledge. There's no pay day in it.

If your not happy with what your training is giving you then YOU must change something. Find what it is you want and find a teacher that is a good person as well as teacher that can give you that. Don't look for some fight of the centuray to tell you things you can already figure out.

Nice post despite the meds......hey I may want some of those....

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

Ben-to an extent, but IMO martial arts isnt about proving anything.



You agree with ben's post, yet want me to come to you and prove myself?

You're just a big sad bear aren't you

Originally Posted by Draven

But thats the fundamental issue; it isn't "actual fighting" perhaps combat would be a better term. While as a sport MMA does take allot of fluff of out martial arts bouts it is no where close to a brawl or a streetfight. It does nothing to prepare you for those situations.

Now that said, MMA does and has proven that sportsmenship is a destorier to the combativeness of any martial arts system. For example, all those strikers who were experts at point sparring and even the full contact fighters had a huge training gap. A gap that came from training based on those rules. MMA suffers from this same weakness to a lesser extent; since the sport forces others to train at all ranges. So while I don't think that MMA does anything for self-defnse training or preparing someone for a streetfight; it does a far better job of it then most other combat sports.

I agree and disagree to an extent. I wouldn't limit it to most other sport arts I would say just most arts in general.

Originally Posted by john55

Yea but when you are good in MMA, you can defend against and use punches, kicks, takedowns, clinch, grappling and you have proven that you can use those methods. In most TMAs you never prove that you can use that stuff. That is why people say MMA is better for self defense. If you cant and dont practice fighting in all those ranges how can you say you are ready to defend yourself? How do you know your special moves, that you have never used on someone, like putting your finger in their eye are going to really do what your instructor says? The whole point about MMA is that you actually practice your moves against a fully resisting opponent. This is why in a full contact fight, MMA fighters generally beat TMA guys. The TMA guys dont practice the same way. And I didnt say all, meaning every single TMA guy, but in general most or the majority.

And MMA isnt self defense training, but its really good for self defense. Who can argue that full contact fighting isnt good for self defense? MMA guys just argue that if you arent training to fight at all ranges against full resistance, that you probably cant really use those moves. They dont train against weapons or multiple opponents and they dont claim to.

but honestly, if you put an mma fighter and tma fighter on the street in a self defense situation, I would put my money on the mma guy doing better each time. mma guys are generally tougher and more likely to have street awareness as well, at least from my experience. Just walk into an MMA gym, then a TKD dojo, there is a huge difference in the mind frame and type of people in each place.

Yes nail on the head

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

And though I agree to a degree, TMA upon their introduction were actually MMA. They just fell into the trap of not "upgrading".

(BTW-MMA ARE ACTUALLY PRACTICING TMA, THOUGH THEY ARE MIXING)

But practicing full resistance doesnt always win all battles. A little mentality goes a long way.

No I'm sorry

Originally Posted by XDEATHGOD

from my experience at my old school, and a couple of mma gyms i went to and was going to for a while, my old tkd school was much harder/tougher. and honestly had better fighters. i went to a muay thai class and i was disssapointed. they couldnot fight at all, all of them were ok at jiujitsu but could not strike. they thought they were aweome fighters because they lifted weights but they wernt good strikers at all. they couldnt kick at all, really all they threw were round kicks and they were slow ugly round kicks it was like watered down muay thai, really. there were a few good boxers. this was at the gracie sports center, and at the brentwood mma schools it was the same. might i say that the gracie sports center is considered one of the best mma schools in the US?

i guess i would put my money on a mma guy because they train grappling but thats the only reason why?

In my experience TKD offers the absolute worse structure for striking arts. The kicking is only good against other TKD guys and pretty much is useless in anything other then point sparring. For example a light weight of mine just fought a 2nd degree WTF black belt and destroyed him within two minuets, my guy has been training for about 4 or 5 months by the way and won via TKO. I would love to see footage of your super TKD classes.

[TeamHBJJ]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

You're just a big sad bear aren't you



I agree and disagree to an extent. I wouldn't limit it to most other sport arts I would say just most arts in general.



Yes nail on the head



No I'm sorry



In my experience TKD offers the absolute worse structure for striking arts. The kicking is only good against other TKD guys and pretty much is useless in anything other then point sparring. For example a light weight of mine just fought a 2nd degree WTF black belt and destroyed him within two minuets, my guy has been training for about 4 or 5 months by the way and won via TKO. I would love to see footage of your super TKD classes.

Good post Triangle I agree with everything u said here!!

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

In my experience TKD offers the absolute worse structure for striking arts. The kicking is only good against other TKD guys and pretty much is useless in anything other then point sparring. For example a light weight of mine just fought a 2nd degree WTF black belt and destroyed him within two minuets, my guy has been training for about 4 or 5 months by the way and won via TKO. I would love to see footage of your super TKD classes.

Well, I guess you may have limited expereince with TKD...

Actually, what it was is a political figure head wanting a national pat time or sport for his country. So he went to other martial artists/schools of that period and they all got together to create one.

Hmmmn, TKD, started off as a MMA....

Anyway, just one could say that Yudo is a debauchery or attenuated version of Judo, Hapkido of Aikido, Tang Soo and Kempo of Chuan Fa, with these being the same of other arts.

Over time, everyone and every art stepped up to lay claim to being the best since slice bread.

The main problem is, each art tries to cross onto another within that art's rules and guidlines, per se'.

TKD of the early 60's is different than nowadays.

I have observed TKD, Karate, Kung Fu people fair well in fights.

It depends on the situation and how one is trained.

If one is trained for "point sparring", then he will not adapt.

[SirokiFighter]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

In my experience TKD offers the absolute worse structure for striking arts. The kicking is only good against other TKD guys and pretty much is useless in anything other then point sparring. For example a light weight of mine just fought a 2nd degree WTF black belt and destroyed him within two minuets, my guy has been training for about 4 or 5 months by the way and won via TKO. I would love to see footage of your super TKD classes.

you obviously have no experience.

and dont know what your talking about.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by SirokiFighter

you obviously have no experience.

and dont know what your talking about.

Well, if my post is any worth of structure, I guess it explains why he thinks that way, why the situation happened that way, and why it shouldn't be a finite conclusion.

[souldrum71]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

In my experience TKD offers the absolute worse structure for striking arts. The kicking is only good against other TKD guys and pretty much is useless in anything other then point sparring. For example a light weight of mine just fought a 2nd degree WTF black belt and destroyed him within two minuets, my guy has been training for about 4 or 5 months by the way and won via TKO. I would love to see footage of your super TKD classes.

Six years ago I would have agreed with you, Triangle. I had trained in shotokan karate, done some kickboxing, went to Japan while in the military and trained for two and a half years in some of the most hardcore kyokushin and seishin juku karate that you can imagine. When I returned to the U.S. in 1993, I tried out a TKD school, but I quit after two months because, to be honest, it was a complete joke. That experience turned me against TKD as a whole for a long time. Until I met my current instructors and found out that it wasn't the style; it was the school and organization. At the dojang I currently train at, we point spar, but we also kickbox. We do forms, but we also do small joint manipulation self defense. We also mix in a lot of grappling (Japanese jujitsu) and judo.
I can understand why you might want to pigeon-hole all TKD into what you have observed of the art, but you must realize that that is being small-minded and not considering what something might have to offer. You're smarter than that, man.

[john55]

Originally Posted by souldrum71

Six years ago I would have agreed with you, Triangle. I had trained in shotokan karate, done some kickboxing, went to Japan while in the military and trained for two and a half years in some of the most hardcore kyokushin and seishin juku karate that you can imagine. When I returned to the U.S. in 1993, I tried out a TKD school, but I quit after two months because, to be honest, it was a complete joke. That experience turned me against TKD as a whole for a long time. Until I met my current instructors and found out that it wasn't the style; it was the school and organization. At the dojang I currently train at, we point spar, but we also kickbox. We do forms, but we also do small joint manipulation self defense. We also mix in a lot of grappling (Japanese jujitsu) and judo.
I can understand why you might want to pigeon-hole all TKD into what you have observed of the art, but you must realize that that is being small-minded and not considering what something might have to offer. You're smarter than that, man.

Yea but he is talking about TKD in general, not every school. Plus it sounds like your school is not doing TKD but TKD + things from other arts.

[Draven]

Originally Posted by john55

Yea but he is talking about TKD in general, not every school. Plus it sounds like your school is not doing TKD but TKD + things from other arts.

Let me give you a thought, I lived in Korea for 4 years while in the Army. TKD schools are truly a franchize there one on every corner and such. However the TKD there is similar to old school shotokan and has a great deal of grappling techniques (primarily stand-up). You might see it as TKD+ by Western standards.

What most people fail to realize is that large parent orgs like the KTF, JKA, USKA etc, set minimum standards for progression and class structure, the rule much like SOPs anywhere is that you can add to the standard but you can't take away from it.

[souldrum71]

Originally Posted by john55

Yea but he is talking about TKD in general, not every school. Plus it sounds like your school is not doing TKD but TKD + things from other arts.

Yes, I know he's talking about TKD in general. That's what I meant by 'pigeon-holing.' My point is two-fold: 1) traditional TKD taught and trained in to a high standard can be a very effective fighting art, and 2) although there are admittedly a huge number of crappy McDojangs out there, you can't say that the art itself is bad just because there are many who a teaching a watered down version of it.

Also, you're right. My dojang does teach TKD plus other striking and grappling arts, but, as Martialman said earlier, TKD started out as a 'mixed martial art.' We are actually more traditional than most 'strict' TKD schools out there.

Finally, I think it's important to mention that Triangle specifically said his student beat a WTF black belt. Well, I've watched plenty of WTF style sparring (hands hanging down around the waist with absolutely no guard, no or very little use of hand techniques, round kicks with the top of the foot rather than the ball of the foot, etc.), and I personally think they display the worst example of TKD fighting that there is. JMHO

[john55]

Originally Posted by Draven

Let me give you a thought, I lived in Korea for 4 years while in the Army. TKD schools are truly a franchize there one on every corner and such. However the TKD there is similar to old school shotokan and has a great deal of grappling techniques (primarily stand-up). You might see it as TKD+ by Western standards.

What most people fail to realize is that large parent orgs like the KTF, JKA, USKA etc, set minimum standards for progression and class structure, the rule much like SOPs anywhere is that you can add to the standard but you can't take away from it.

OK, here is something I dont get. Every TKD school I have trained at claims to be doing the same stuff that the grandmasters in korea are from the old days. I have even seen some of the grandmasters at tournaments and such for itf and ctf. I dont understand how there can be such a difference between the western and korean standards when the head of the organizations are all linked and the top usa people all trained under the korean or us grandmasters. Plus they all claim to have not changed things, especially the CTF organization.

Another thing, I have heard that TKD doesnt have stand up grappling which is why tons of TKD schools are now incorporating hapkido which is all stand up grappling. From what you are saying TKD does this?

I am just confused about the history and what TKD truly is. I see one thing...several times actually, and then every TKD person online says another.