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I live in the hometown of ATA and have several friends that
teach in ATA. It is becoming rumored for years that ATA is a "black belt" factory and whatnot. I know from personally talking to the instructors (my friends) that they get bonus's for the amount of students they have over X amount in their school and a bonus if they have over X amount testing.
One friend of mine is making good money teaching ATA but is tired of the business side of it and trying to make quota.
The ATA Taekwondo system recognizes nine color belts, and a black belt recommended rank in the progression from white belt (novice or newcomer) to black belt. Additionally there are nine degrees of black belt plus another "recommended" level prior to 2nd degree. With the large number of belts (including uncommon colors such as the camouflage belt), the fact that each test costs an additional fee, and the relatively rapid promotion through the belt ranks (it is not uncommon to achieve black belt within two years for excellent demonstration at each rank) have led some critics to label ATA schools with the derogatory phrase "belt factories" and "McDojos".[citation needed] This practice is similar to the stripe approach used by many other Taekwondo organizations, including the ITF and the WTF, whereby fewer belts are used, but the students periodically test for stripes to be added to their belts.
The use of nine levels in the colored belt and black belt systems, while attributed to a belt factory mentality, is in fact rooted in Korean numerology and has been explained by General Choi (nine is an important number in Korean culture). The increased number of smaller goals provided by nine levels of colored belt rank likely satisfies the need of many American students for immediate gratification.[citation needed]
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JoaNor
Japanese "CowBoys": "Yee Haw, Rope 'em Dawggies" - 47MartialMan
White, Yellow, Orange, Pink, Green, Purple, Blue, Brown, Red, Black - 1st Dan, Black - 2nd Dan
The ATA is like any other org. They have a business to deal with. Belt ranking is a part of any commercial school as a method to bring in more finances.
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
Styles: Western Boxing, Tai Chi, Animal Form Kung Fu, and Wing Chun
Posts: 1,933
Home Country:
I've heard the same things about the ATA TKD schools. I understand the business side of it, but to have some students reach a teacher level ( black belt )in two years seems... odd. Most systems I know of take 5 to 7 years of constant study to reach that level. Its my opnion that if someone gets a black belt in two years, either the style is very, VERY, simple or the knowledge is lacking.
I've heard the same things about the ATA TKD schools. I understand the business side of it, but to have some students reach a teacher level ( black belt )in two years seems... odd. Most systems I know of take 5 to 7 years of constant study to reach that level. Its my opnion that if someone gets a black belt in two years, either the style is very, VERY, simple or the knowledge is lacking.
At our place, we have color belt tests EVERY month until your 15. When you are under 15, your belts are called Poom, but when you are 15 or older, you have to start at yellow belt again and the tests are harder and only 3 times a year and the belts are called Dan.
/For Poom black belt, you have to wait 1 year for 1st black belt, 2 years for 2nd black belt and so on.
/Same Foor Dan Black Belt
But even the tests for Poom are hard... Even the slightest mistake or hesitation makes you fail... You generally need 2-3 months to pass a belt
__________________
JoaNor
Japanese "CowBoys": "Yee Haw, Rope 'em Dawggies" - 47MartialMan
White, Yellow, Orange, Pink, Green, Purple, Blue, Brown, Red, Black - 1st Dan, Black - 2nd Dan
Styles: Ninjutsu, Tae Kwon Do, Modern Army Combatives
Posts: 1,252
Home Country:
you might find some ATA schools that are actually good. but for the most part they are a black belt factory.
they started off as a good organization but got spoiled due to commercialism.
if you go to Korea to do TKD an you come from a school like ATA...depending on the school....they're gonna make you a white belt again.
Chapel knows more about this and the other TKD guys but some rogue schools you might have to watch out for...but if im not mistaken, rogue schools for the most part are more realistic?
theres couple other orgs i know of im still checking out. but i dont know enough to make a judgement
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“You could do this same technique with a knife. Just keep it hidden. Don’t go swinging it around. We’re not yakuza here.”
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The ATA is like any other org. They have a business to deal with. Belt ranking is a part of any commercial school as a method to bring in more finances.
It's not the business side of it I don't like - it's the push to get X amount of students to get that "bonus" check.
You know you can't even get a contract to take home and look over? It reminds me like buying a car. You have the instructor that is really nice and good - then you go to the back to talk to the "financial" person in charge of the payment plans.
It pains me to see that you have to pay more to get to do the good stuff - like weapons and sparring. Did you know they separate people in class (at a point) by with "club" you are in?
That meaning "basic club" doesn't get to practice weapons like the "black belt club" does. So that makes little Johnny go to his dad and say "I want to do weapons - I want to be in the black belt club" - so dad now as to fork over more money.
It's not the business side of it I don't like - it's the push to get X amount of students to get that "bonus" check.
You know you can't even get a contract to take home and look over? It reminds me like buying a car. You have the instructor that is really nice and good - then you go to the back to talk to the "financial" person in charge of the payment plans.
It pains me to see that you have to pay more to get to do the good stuff - like weapons and sparring. Did you know they separate people in class (at a point) by with "club" you are in? That meaning "basic club" doesn't get to practice weapons like the "black belt club" does. So that makes little Johnny go to his dad and say "I want to do weapons - I want to be in the black belt club" - so dad now as to fork over more money.
Sadly, this happens with everything...:/ It's called envy...
__________________
JoaNor
Japanese "CowBoys": "Yee Haw, Rope 'em Dawggies" - 47MartialMan
White, Yellow, Orange, Pink, Green, Purple, Blue, Brown, Red, Black - 1st Dan, Black - 2nd Dan
Chapel knows more about this and the other TKD guys but some rogue schools you might have to watch out for...but if im not mistaken, rogue schools for the most part are more realistic?
My particular school has bounced between the nationals only because we are very independently run and we are under the instruction of a 9th Dan. However, when doing Dan certificates and the like we always go through the Kukkiwon, so I guess we are linked to WTF in that way. Recently my instructor was asked to be a part of a reorganization of Tae Kwon Do schools in the Metro NY area. I think the tentative name of the organization is United States Taekwondo Organization (USTO), but this program is taking its time getting started.
I will not make the blanket statement that all ATA schools are bad or that all rogue schools are good. In fact, I would probably be much more likely to trust a school that says ATA than a school that reports to no organization at all. In the end, it really comes down to instructors much more than the organization they report to. That is, the instructors have to teach what you want to learn. If you want sport, find a school with trophies on display. If you want self-defense, find a school with instructors who also are involved in the police department. If you want tradition and culture, find a school whose head instructor was trained in Korea. Its the old saying, shop before you buy.
I've heard the same things about the ATA TKD schools. I understand the business side of it, but to have some students reach a teacher level ( black belt )in two years seems... odd. Most systems I know of take 5 to 7 years of constant study to reach that level. Its my opnion that if someone gets a black belt in two years, either the style is very, VERY, simple or the knowledge is lacking.
Ive seen this raging more in the late 60's/early 70's when more TKD places were trying to promote fast in order to gain popularity and open as many schools as possible.
This was spearheaded by the Korean governemnt, hence more propganda
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
Ive seen this raging more in the late 60's/early 70's when more TKD places were trying to promote fast in order to gain popularity and open as many schools as possible.
This was spearheaded by the Korean governemnt, hence more propganda
Korean Government??? The ATA is not part and was not a part of any Korean Associations or Federations... The ATA say they teach "American TaeKwonDo"... This "American TaeKwonDo" is a lot different to the "Korean TaeKwonDo"...
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JoaNor
Japanese "CowBoys": "Yee Haw, Rope 'em Dawggies" - 47MartialMan
White, Yellow, Orange, Pink, Green, Purple, Blue, Brown, Red, Black - 1st Dan, Black - 2nd Dan
Korean Government??? The ATA is not part and was not a part of any Korean Associations or Federations... The ATA say they teach "American TaeKwonDo"... This "American TaeKwonDo" is a lot different to the "Korean TaeKwonDo"...
You missed the point. In the beginning*, the issue was to train many people abroad...to get the art popular and known. It worked too well as people started to break away and start new orgs. Thus within such, "old habits" of training and certification in short time were used again.
In the 60's-70's, two of my Korean instructors were getting Korean Government Checks-Deposits (financing) to open up TKD schools. There were bonus/extra incentives to open so many in a given time. To do this, they had to promote qucikly...hence a "chain of schools".
Why should any other org, Korean or otherwise, looking to popularize, or franchise, be any different?
This I had seen and as told.
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
TKD schools to stay away from?
The ATA is not part and was not a part of any Korean Associations or Federations... The ATA say they teach "American TaeKwonDo"... This "American TaeKwonDo" is a lot different to the "Korean TaeKwonDo"...
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