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Styles: Western Boxing, Tai Chi, Animal Form Kung Fu, and Wing Chun
Posts: 1,778
Home Country:
In my opinion, if your footwork doesn't support your body, then you don't have full power or balance. Foot work is the base upon which your body and movement is built upon. Ignoring it is like ignoring the basics of your art...maybe even worse.
i see what you mean. we didnt have many footwork drills and such. or much footwork at all when i started learning. remember most footwork today is based on being able to spar in a tkd competition, which to me is bs. thw footwork i learned would be looked at as bad footwork, by today sport tkd population. when i teach i teach the same footwork i learned. insted of using fancy footwork to dodge kicks, and punches, we would just spear them, or burst, or watever u wish to refer to it as, or just block it.
i dont need fancy footwork, i only need to knock my oppenent out, or submit them.
Styles: Western Boxing, Tai Chi, Animal Form Kung Fu, and Wing Chun
Posts: 1,778
Home Country:
I'm definitley not talking about fancy footwork. No Wing Chun guy I know would ever recomend that. I mean that your feet are under your body so that your power isn't cut off. Its also important that your stancework support what your body is doing, and not splitting your power.
I used to train KD when I was in my twenties. I stopped many years ago and changed to silat instead. An incident changed my view of the effectiveness of TKD moves. This is what happened:
I was training with another guy whose art was silat. He was putting up his own style of dancing-like movement, and I was bouncing around as most TKD practitioners spar. There I was showboasting my fancy kicks (I was young and foolish then)and I moved in with a front kick to his upper torso (in TKD we just dont kick below the belt, do we?) He blocked my kick, suddenly grabbed my ankle and lifted my foot up in the air. I landed on my head and passed out for a few minutes.
This incident made me questioned the effectiveness of my training in TKD. That guy invaded my inner circle and I just didnt know how to respond. I was used to the way TKD sparred: you move on the other guy outside his circle. Move in, move out, side steps, forward and backward and the likes. I didnt remember training for fights in this inner circle, unless you count one-steps and three-steps sparring as training for this kind of fight.
The silat I am training in now do not have any kick at all in its syllabus, unless you count leg sweep not higher than knee high as a kick. The philosophy is that kicks are just ineffective. When you lift one leg to kick, your foundation is left with the other leg. In that instance that you lift the kicking leg, you are vulnerable to counterstrike. Think about it, human beings are not made to stand on one leg. You need two legs to stand upright, to balance yourself. When you compromise that balance on just one leg, your foundation is weakened.
Let us picture a scenario here. A man execute a roundhouse kick to the head of his opponent. The moment he lift his kicking leg, the opponent moves into his circle, blocks the kick somewhere above the knee, making the kick itself ineffective. His inner circle already invaded, his balance is already off, what can his opponent be thinking of in order to finish him off? A simple shove to the ground is easy enough, punch to the midsection or a legsweep to the hind leg (the standing leg) will surely send him tumbling down. What would BJJ do in this situation, I wonder?
My point is this. To focus your arsenal with kicks all the time is simply too dangerous. What do you think?
ARRGGGG I hate that front stance bs . I think that deep stances like horse stance and front stance/back stance really cut down on ones mobility and no offense but, are useless in modern combat sports and sketchy in street self defense at best. And it is so hard to teach a TKD guy how to jab because he always wants to slide into that front stance. Oh and chambering argggg chambering!!!!(can you tell I worked with my TKD guy last night?)
__________________
I'm a shark, the ground game is my ocean. And most people don't know how to swim. Oh yeah and I can knock you out too
Everything I know in life, I learned from watching the Fall Guy.
I used to train KD when I was in my twenties. I stopped many years ago and changed to silat instead. An incident changed my view of the effectiveness of TKD moves. This is what happened:
I was training with another guy whose art was silat. He was putting up his own style of dancing-like movement, and I was bouncing around as most TKD practitioners spar. There I was showboasting my fancy kicks (I was young and foolish then)and I moved in with a front kick to his upper torso (in TKD we just dont kick below the belt, do we?) He blocked my kick, suddenly grabbed my ankle and lifted my foot up in the air. I landed on my head and passed out for a few minutes.
This incident made me questioned the effectiveness of my training in TKD. That guy invaded my inner circle and I just didnt know how to respond. I was used to the way TKD sparred: you move on the other guy outside his circle. Move in, move out, side steps, forward and backward and the likes. I didnt remember training for fights in this inner circle, unless you count one-steps and three-steps sparring as training for this kind of fight.
The silat I am training in now do not have any kick at all in its syllabus, unless you count leg sweep not higher than knee high as a kick. The philosophy is that kicks are just ineffective. When you lift one leg to kick, your foundation is left with the other leg. In that instance that you lift the kicking leg, you are vulnerable to counterstrike. Think about it, human beings are not made to stand on one leg. You need two legs to stand upright, to balance yourself. When you compromise that balance on just one leg, your foundation is weakened.
Let us picture a scenario here. A man execute a roundhouse kick to the head of his opponent. The moment he lift his kicking leg, the opponent moves into his circle, blocks the kick somewhere above the knee, making the kick itself ineffective. His inner circle already invaded, his balance is already off, what can his opponent be thinking of in order to finish him off? A simple shove to the ground is easy enough, punch to the midsection or a legsweep to the hind leg (the standing leg) will surely send him tumbling down. What would BJJ do in this situation, I wonder?
My point is this. To focus your arsenal with kicks all the time is simply too dangerous. What do you think?
I somewhat agree. Though I would like to point out from my observations, TKD, say 30-40 years ago didn't emphasize bouncing kicking. Though there were high and jumping kicks, I was lead to believe these were to increase balance and form. Though I think they were also part for "show". The "show" part had me reserach TKD and the arts that comprised it. As many of these in it, didn't actually have such flare.
Back then, there were drills/rotuines/tactics, aimed at getting the foot/leg caught in order to respond/counter. The arsenal had as many hand tactics, takedowns, grappling, etc, as kicks alone was a small fraction of the entire study.
Perhaps the problem with TKD nowdays, is this flare/focus, and not of tactics on "in-case scenarios", as the mainstream of it recently, seems to be sport.
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
ARRGGGG I hate that front stance bs . I think that deep stances like horse stance and front stance/back stance really cut down on ones mobility and no offense but, are useless in modern combat sports and sketchy in street self defense at best. And it is so hard to teach a TKD guy how to jab because he always wants to slide into that front stance. Oh and chambering argggg chambering!!!!(can you tell I worked with my TKD guy last night?)
I have to agree with a degree.
The systems, and not just TKD, that have these stances may use them without (perhaps some do) the understanding that they are to practice form and are not for actual combat/defense.
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
I used to train KD when I was in my twenties. I stopped many years ago and changed to silat instead. An incident changed my view of the effectiveness of TKD moves. This is what happened:
I was training with another guy whose art was silat. He was putting up his own style of dancing-like movement, and I was bouncing around as most TKD practitioners spar. There I was showboasting my fancy kicks (I was young and foolish then)and I moved in with a front kick to his upper torso (in TKD we just dont kick below the belt, do we?) He blocked my kick, suddenly grabbed my ankle and lifted my foot up in the air. I landed on my head and passed out for a few minutes.
This incident made me questioned the effectiveness of my training in TKD. That guy invaded my inner circle and I just didnt know how to respond. I was used to the way TKD sparred: you move on the other guy outside his circle. Move in, move out, side steps, forward and backward and the likes. I didnt remember training for fights in this inner circle, unless you count one-steps and three-steps sparring as training for this kind of fight.
The silat I am training in now do not have any kick at all in its syllabus, unless you count leg sweep not higher than knee high as a kick. The philosophy is that kicks are just ineffective. When you lift one leg to kick, your foundation is left with the other leg. In that instance that you lift the kicking leg, you are vulnerable to counterstrike. Think about it, human beings are not made to stand on one leg. You need two legs to stand upright, to balance yourself. When you compromise that balance on just one leg, your foundation is weakened.
Let us picture a scenario here. A man execute a roundhouse kick to the head of his opponent. The moment he lift his kicking leg, the opponent moves into his circle, blocks the kick somewhere above the knee, making the kick itself ineffective. His inner circle already invaded, his balance is already off, what can his opponent be thinking of in order to finish him off? A simple shove to the ground is easy enough, punch to the midsection or a legsweep to the hind leg (the standing leg) will surely send him tumbling down. What would BJJ do in this situation, I wonder?
My point is this. To focus your arsenal with kicks all the time is simply too dangerous. What do you think?
yes. i see your point. we dont bounce when i learn, but they do now. and i agree too depend on kicks only is dangerous, but thats why we learn how to punch, elboe, knee. take people down, etc. your insructor should have let you guys know that bouncing in and out in a non tkd comp fight is not that good to do. our tance was watever was comfortable to us. and we keep hands up.
yes. i see your point. we dont bounce when i learn, but they do now. and i agree too depend on kicks only is dangerous, but thats why we learn how to punch, elboe, knee. take people down, etc. your insructor should have let you guys know that bouncing in and out in a non tkd comp fight is not that good to do. our tance was watever was comfortable to us. and we keep hands up.
Do you think people have too many misconceptions and/or prejudices of certain information resulting from current projections or little exposure?
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
Styles: Western Boxing, Tai Chi, Animal Form Kung Fu, and Wing Chun
Posts: 1,778
Home Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD
ARRGGGG I hate that front stance bs . I think that deep stances like horse stance and front stance/back stance really cut down on ones mobility and no offense but, are useless in modern combat sports and sketchy in street self defense at best. And it is so hard to teach a TKD guy how to jab because he always wants to slide into that front stance. Oh and chambering argggg chambering!!!!(can you tell I worked with my TKD guy last night?)
...but these type of guys make me feel so much better about what I know! Before anyone takes that too serious, it was a joke.
Siroki, look at my signiture and you'll see how I feel about training the Tigger bouncey bouncey stuff then thinking your ready for a street altercation.
Triangle and Lun have already pointed this out but I can reiterate it as well.
We have a LONG time TKD player/instructor training with us for MMA and we have had a BITCH of a time getting him to stop bouncing and switching stances standing up. Since he trained this way for like 15 years he now has it completly ingrained into him that this is how you fight and it's just not a smart thing to do against someone looking to take you down for LOTS of reasons.
Styles: Western Boxing, Tai Chi, Animal Form Kung Fu, and Wing Chun
Posts: 1,778
Home Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joemoplata
Triangle and Lun have already pointed this out but I can reiterate it as well.
We have a LONG time TKD player/instructor training with us for MMA and we have had a BITCH of a time getting him to stop bouncing and switching stances standing up. Since he trained this way for like 15 years he now has it completly ingrained into him that this is how you fight and it's just not a smart thing to do against someone looking to take you down for LOTS of reasons.
My instructor said something I thought was kinda amusing, but it pertains to this. We were talking about the bouncing in a stance and he said "No base, no structure, no fight."
My instructor said something I thought was kinda amusing, but it pertains to this. We were talking about the bouncing in a stance and he said "No base, no structure, no fight."
Perfect.
Not only that....but a LOT of TKD guys bounce to a count or a pattern. He would bounce 4 times, then pause...then kick.
Triangle and Lun have already pointed this out but I can reiterate it as well.
We have a LONG time TKD player/instructor training with us for MMA and we have had a BITCH of a time getting him to stop bouncing and switching stances standing up. Since he trained this way for like 15 years he now has it completly ingrained into him that this is how you fight and it's just not a smart thing to do against someone looking to take you down for LOTS of reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WC_Lun
My instructor said something I thought was kinda amusing, but it pertains to this. We were talking about the bouncing in a stance and he said "No base, no structure, no fight."
Indeed. On both posts - interesting.
Didn't Bruce Lee and Ali bounce? (And Im not talking about a security guy at a club)
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
In Denial
I mean that your feet are under your body so that your power isn't cut off. Its also important that your stancework support what your body is doing, and not splitting your power.
. I think that deep stances like horse stance and front stance/back stance really cut down on ones mobility and no offense but, are useless in modern combat sports and sketchy in street self defense at best. And it is so hard to teach a TKD guy how to jab because he always wants to slide into that front stance. Oh and chambering argggg chambering!!!!(can you tell I worked with my TKD guy last night?)
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