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Styles: Western Boxing, Tai Chi, Animal Form Kung Fu, and Wing Chun
Posts: 1,933
Home Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47MartialMan
Indeed. On both posts - interesting.
Didn't Bruce Lee and Ali bounce? (And Im not talking about a security guy at a club)
Niether Ali or Lee bounced up and down. They always had some base. I don't like the way Lee "bounced," or as I call it the JKD shuffle, but I think he had the physical skills to pull it off. He also understood timings and patterns very well. Most fighters do not...at least not nearly as much.
Back then, there were drills/rotuines/tactics, aimed at getting the foot/leg caught in order to respond/counter. The arsenal had as many hand tactics, takedowns, grappling, etc, as kicks alone was a small fraction of the entire study.
Perhaps the problem with TKD nowdays, is this flare/focus, and not of tactics on "in-case scenarios", as the mainstream of it recently, seems to be sport.
I agree that there is too much flare. I also think that the flare is what gets some people to join up and become interested in MA. Most of us probably started or did some TKD at some point. They do need to get rid of the chambering and anything else that actually hurts you in a self defense situation.
One thing that I keep hearing is that original TKD used to do takedowns, grappling, locks, throws, etc...more like JJJ, hapkido, aikido, but then it stopped. How long ago did it stop? Why? The reason I ask is because I feel like so many TKD instructors, at least that I have had, have been very strict with keeping the old traditions and doing things the old ways, which is why they DONT start including all this other stuff. I just get the feeling that they are not and have not changed the curriculum which is why TKD schools are not adapting to MMA, because they dont want to change.
This is just confusing then...people were willing to change it 20 years ago...many of those instructors are still alive and some probably teaching from the 70s/80s, and yet they appear to not want to change due to tradition etc. I am utterly confused....something isnt making sense.
Niether Ali or Lee bounced up and down. They always had some base. I don't like the way Lee "bounced," or as I call it the JKD shuffle, but I think he had the physical skills to pull it off. He also understood timings and patterns very well. Most fighters do not...at least not nearly as much.
So Ali didnt bounce shuffled?
I thought boxers bounced also.
So bounce is different than a skip/shuffle?
Lee's shuffle is a JKD concept?
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
I agree that there is too much flare. I also think that the flare is what gets some people to join up and become interested in MA. Most of us probably started or did some TKD at some point. They do need to get rid of the chambering and anything else that actually hurts you in a self defense situation.
One thing that I keep hearing is that original TKD used to do takedowns, grappling, locks, throws, etc...more like JJJ, hapkido, aikido, but then it stopped. How long ago did it stop? Why? The reason I ask is because I feel like so many TKD instructors, at least that I have had, have been very strict with keeping the old traditions and doing things the old ways, which is why they DONT start including all this other stuff. I just get the feeling that they are not and have not changed the curriculum which is why TKD schools are not adapting to MMA, because they dont want to change.
This is just confusing then...people were willing to change it 20 years ago...many of those instructors are still alive and some probably teaching from the 70s/80s, and yet they appear to not want to change due to tradition etc. I am utterly confused....something isnt making sense.
Great reponse.
To bring my own understanding of whats in bold/blue:
The issue of hardcore training was begining to take shape in the morals of society that was changing into a legal/suit happy.
It was better to find safer ways to teach, than to find legal loop holes or other legal protection.
Schools were also beginning to understand commercialism and as my father had told me "Find something that kids would like, and you can make money."
Curriculums, as well as ranking, etc., had to change in order to meet the flux of kids coming into martial arts.
Thus, these kids also saw more entertainment of martial arts on a larger scale, motivating them to get their parents to enroll them. Hence my father's understanding/philosophy.
It was apparent to the "old" TKD instructors, that in order to be more commercially successful, they had to quckly rank people. This was also to open more schools thus getting more exposure of their style. Some, "bended" the hardcore or critia of training and rank in order to meet commercial needs.
Thus, students who were ranked, per not understanding the differences, became teachers, whom had instructed the same way. And there it went into a disparity.
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
Ali and some boxers in general bounce but it is completely different. In boxing you never throw with out your feet planted also in close you stay with your feet planted and use head movement, Ali was great at this. Bouncing shows that you have good conditioning and makes it hard to lock in on your head. Some boxers will box in retreat as well. Ali also never switched to a south paw stance he always stayed orthodox.
Sorry to say this but Bruce Lee was not a fighter, he was an actor. He did do a lot for martial arts but, I don't consider him a fighter.
__________________
I'm a shark, the ground game is my ocean. And most people don't know how to swim. Oh yeah and I can knock you out too
Everything I know in life, I learned from watching the Fall Guy.
Styles: Ninjutsu, Tae Kwon Do, Modern Army Combatives
Posts: 1,252
Home Country:
ive been doing TKD for 16 years and i dont bounce if im in a street fight. i dunno what some schools are teaching nowadays. common sense an logic tells u that if your in a street fight or your fighting someone from another style
that you dont fight in the bounderies of the competition rules of your particular art. on the original training curriculum of TKD theres still schools that teach that way but in the states for instance you'll have to do alot of shopping around.
and the competition side is thrown in there too but some schools over emphasize that over practical self defense and fighting.
alot of TKD schools dont train to go up against other styles either. when i was brought up....if you were a Kung Fu person or Kenpo, Karate, whatever an your holding a tournament....we're gonna be there and compete with you.
on Kicking my dad used to cross train in TKD when he was stationed in Korea. he said from his experience alot of the advanced kicking done today was done back then. also in Hapkido and Tang Soo Do schools. i remember readin in a TKD times article back in the 90s about an Instructor who used to box for the Navy in the 50s
he went to Korea for a fight, got into an argument with a taxi driver on his way to the match but never made it to the boxing math cause the taxi driver broke his jaw with a jump spinning kick. so while he was layin up in the hospital with a wired jaw he decided to switch over to TKD an been teaching ever since.
some people arent into advanced kicking techniques....they call them "flashy" which they can be depending on how u train an use them and brand them as in-effective or risky......but gettin in a fight by itself is risky. to me alotta people who say that about advanced kicks are people who cant use them in a real fight.
__________________
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ive been doing TKD for 16 years and i dont bounce if im in a street fight. i dunno what some schools are teaching nowadays. common sense an logic tells u that if your in a street fight or your fighting someone from another style
that you dont fight in the bounderies of the competition rules of your particular art. on the original training curriculum of TKD theres still schools that teach that way but in the states for instance you'll have to do alot of shopping around.
and the competition side is thrown in there too but some schools over emphasize that over practical self defense and fighting.
alot of TKD schools dont train to go up against other styles either. when i was brought up....if you were a Kung Fu person or Kenpo, Karate, whatever an your holding a tournament....we're gonna be there and compete with you.
on Kicking my dad used to cross train in TKD when he was stationed in Korea. he said from his experience alot of the advanced kicking done today was done back then. also in Hapkido and Tang Soo Do schools. i remember readin in a TKD times article back in the 90s about an Instructor who used to box for the Navy in the 50s
he went to Korea for a fight, got into an argument with a taxi driver on his way to the match but never made it to the boxing math cause the taxi driver broke his jaw with a jump spinning kick. so while he was layin up in the hospital with a wired jaw he decided to switch over to TKD an been teaching ever since.
some people arent into advanced kicking techniques....they call them "flashy" which they can be depending on how u train an use them and brand them as in-effective or risky......but gettin in a fight by itself is risky. to me alotta people who say that about advanced kicks are people who cant use them in a real fight.
As I think most people have figured out, I tend to categorize "moves" into two area: Risk and Percentage.
With any type of roundhouse or spinning kick, they tend to be the type of technique that falls into the Low Percentage/High Risk category. This basically means that you aren't going to very often achieve the goal you were looking for with the move (a KO in this case) and if you miss you are left in a bad position yourself.
That doesn't mean it can't work, of course it can, but it's risky when compared to some other more efficient techniques.
__________________ Whats so bad about a criminal teaching martial arts?
- Energizerbunny63
Sorry to say this but Bruce Lee was not a fighter, he was an actor. He did do a lot for martial arts but, I don't consider him a fighter.
Why was he not a fighter? I know he was an actor and could do the flashy moves on screen, but doesnt his ideas and JKD make him a fighter? Or does it make him a martial artist? I thought JKD was all about real fighting.
Why was he not a fighter? I know he was an actor and could do the flashy moves on screen, but doesnt his ideas and JKD make him a fighter? Or does it make him a martial artist? I thought JKD was all about real fighting.
He had fights before and when he was a actor....
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
To bring my own understanding of whats in bold/blue:
The issue of hardcore training was begining to take shape in the morals of society that was changing into a legal/suit happy.
It was better to find safer ways to teach, than to find legal loop holes or other legal protection.
Schools were also beginning to understand commercialism and as my father had told me "Find sonmething that kids would like, and you can make money."
Curriculums, as well as ranking, etc., had to change in order to meet the flux of kids coming into martial arts.
Thus, these kids also saw more entertainment of martial arts on a larger scale, motivating them to get their parents to enroll them. Hence my father's understanding/philosophy.
It was apparent to the "old" TKD instructors, that in order to be more succesful, they had to quckly rank people. this was also to open more schools thus getting more exposure of their style. Some, "bended" the hardcore or criteis of training and rank in order to meet commercial needs.
Thus, students who were ranked, per not understanding the differences, became teachers, whom had instructed the same way. And there it went into a disparity.
Why didnt they just make a different curriculum for kids and adults? I know other arts did this and are doing this. for example having different curriculum and belts for kids is common in BJJ and I know a few others as well but i cant recall them.
I hate how the whole money thing always becomes an issue, but I do understand it. I mean, one of the reasons why TKD is the most popular martial art and probably will remain the most popular is because kids and parents can enjoy it without much risk of injury (at least at most schools). And there is a demand for that type of MA and its good that TKD suits that need. It is a fun art to practice and is great for a lot of people which is why I am still involved in it.
1.) Why didnt they just make a different curriculum for kids and adults? I know other arts did this and are doing this. for example having different curriculum and belts for kids is common in BJJ and I know a few others as well but i cant recall them.
I hate how the whole money thing always becomes an issue, but I do understand it. 2.) I mean, one of the reasons why TKD is the most popular martial art and probably will remain the most popular is because kids and parents can enjoy it without much risk of injury (at least at most schools). 3.) And there is a demand for that type of MA and its good that TKD suits that need. It is a 4.) fun art to practice and is great for a lot of people which is why I am still involved in it.
I was going to address these other issues in the same post, but I was politely awaiting your response.
1.) Some of those older teachers and other TKD teachers had. Some went as far as to rename their schools, (per not saying that they are ALL TKD). Some rename their arts/teaching. Some went back to their roots (Per if it was a Korean Hapkido instructor who was certified in TKD, taught TKD as well. Changed their sign/curriculums to teach more Hapkido)Others had went off and studied other arts comletly of different culture.
By now, it may be too late to include or go back to the way it was. After all, business is good per 2., 3., and 4.,
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
ARRGGGG I hate that front stance bs . I think that deep stances like horse stance and front stance/back stance really cut down on ones mobility and no offense but, are useless in modern combat sports and sketchy in street self defense at best. And it is so hard to teach a TKD guy how to jab because he always wants to slide into that front stance. Oh and chambering argggg chambering!!!!(can you tell I worked with my TKD guy last night?)
Exactly my point. He doesn't understand why he is doing it and so is actually doing it wrong (even in a TKD way). When doing a front hand punch (in TKD) you aren't supposed to switch into a front stance. When you follow it up with a cross, you do (twist hips/shoulders). However, after you finish the punch, you step right back to a fighting stance because the front stance limits mobility and takes power from your kicks. Additionally, if you want to follow it up with a hook (which is not a TKD punch, but whatever) the front stance-to-fighting stance movement is pretty close to what you want to do anyway.
As for horse stance, kick him in the groin tell him you will each and every time you see him doing that in a fight. It is a stance to be used in drills ONLY. It is supposed to build up leg strength and isolate the arms to help make blocks and the like faster for when you are doing it while sparring. Jeez, I mean, you wouldn't attempt to do squats to defend yourself.
Anyway, it seems that your TKD guy has a lot of bad habits to break. I know it kills you for me to say this, but once you manage to break those habits, you will actually improve his TKD. What TKD rank is/was he anyway? Black, almost black, beginner?
Quote:
Let us picture a scenario here. A man execute a roundhouse kick to the head of his opponent. The moment he lift his kicking leg, the opponent moves into his circle, blocks the kick somewhere above the knee, making the kick itself ineffective. His inner circle already invaded, his balance is already off, what can his opponent be thinking of in order to finish him off? A simple shove to the ground is easy enough, punch to the midsection or a legsweep to the hind leg (the standing leg) will surely send him tumbling down. What would BJJ do in this situation, I wonder?
First, welcome back to the forums. It has been awhile.
I think you are underestimating the emphasis on not only kicks, but the speed of kicks in TKD. In order to realistically push someone over while they are kicking at you, you either need to be much faster than them, at a superior position than them or both. In that case, I would argue that you are the better martial artist and deserve to win.
For 2 of your 3 possibilities I don't think you will get the result you intend. Namely, the push and the punch to the mid section. There are a lot of difficulties with even executing this because if the TKDist is kicking it is at you and he is in a kicking distance away from you making punching or pushing rather difficult. Now, assuming that the punch or push was successfully executed, if the TKDist is decent, his leg will already be going back to the ground. So, you hope that you will send him tumbling to the ground will be dashed when it just causes him to shift weight a bit. (This really shouldn't be surprising. After all, there is a push that doesn't cause the TKDist to fall each and every time that he makes contact with a kick to a solid object.)
The third situation, with the grabbed leg, is the dangerous one. It is probably the single best argument for cross training, but that being said, any decent TKD school which isn't only playing the sport should teach the limited TKD defense against this. If they are slightly better, they should also reach out to other styles to patch up this weakness.
I was going to address these other issues in the same post, but I was politely awaiting your response.
1.) Some of those older teachers and other TKD teachers had. Some went as far as to rename their schools, (per not saying that they are ALL TKD). Some rename their arts/teaching. Some went back to their roots (Per if it was a Korean Hapkido instructor who was certified in TKD, taught TKD as well. Changed their sign/curriculums to teach more Hapkido)Others had went off and studied other arts comletly of different culture.
By now, it may be too late to include or go back to the way it was. After all, business is good per 2., 3., and 4.,
Is there a trend in TKD right now to do and/or incorporate hapkido as well? I feel like I keep seeing schools offering both lately.
Why was he not a fighter? I know he was an actor and could do the flashy moves on screen, but doesnt his ideas and JKD make him a fighter? Or does it make him a martial artist? I thought JKD was all about real fighting.
I'd say more of a martial artist then fighter. I consider a fighter to be a very specific thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47MartialMan
He had fights before and when he was a actor....
Sure some, but none that were documented really. Not to the level of his teacher Yip Man
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapel
Exactly my point. He doesn't understand why he is doing it and so is actually doing it wrong (even in a TKD way). When doing a front hand punch (in TKD) you aren't supposed to switch into a front stance. When you follow it up with a cross, you do (twist hips/shoulders). However, after you finish the punch, you step right back to a fighting stance because the front stance limits mobility and takes power from your kicks. Additionally, if you want to follow it up with a hook (which is not a TKD punch, but whatever) the front stance-to-fighting stance movement is pretty close to what you want to do anyway.
As for horse stance, kick him in the groin tell him you will each and every time you see him doing that in a fight. It is a stance to be used in drills ONLY. It is supposed to build up leg strength and isolate the arms to help make blocks and the like faster for when you are doing it while sparring. Jeez, I mean, you wouldn't attempt to do squats to defend yourself.
Anyway, it seems that your TKD guy has a lot of bad habits to break. I know it kills you for me to say this, but once you manage to break those habits, you will actually improve his TKD. What TKD rank is/was he anyway? Black, almost black, beginner?
I think he is a red belt. But I'm not really sure. His techniques isn't bad it's just that it doesn't fit in well with boxing or MT. I'd have to see what you are talking about to really get it, you know what I mean?
__________________
I'm a shark, the ground game is my ocean. And most people don't know how to swim. Oh yeah and I can knock you out too
Everything I know in life, I learned from watching the Fall Guy.
In Denial
. I think that deep stances like horse stance and front stance/back stance really cut down on ones mobility and no offense but, are useless in modern combat sports and sketchy in street self defense at best. And it is so hard to teach a TKD guy how to jab because he always wants to slide into that front stance. Oh and chambering argggg chambering!!!!(can you tell I worked with my TKD guy last night?)
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