In Denial

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Chapel

Exactly my point. He doesn't understand why he is doing it and so is actually doing it wrong (even in a TKD way). When doing a front hand punch (in TKD) you aren't supposed to switch into a front stance. When you follow it up with a cross, you do (twist hips/shoulders). However, after you finish the punch, you step right back to a fighting stance because the front stance limits mobility and takes power from your kicks. Additionally, if you want to follow it up with a hook (which is not a TKD punch, but whatever) the front stance-to-fighting stance movement is pretty close to what you want to do anyway.

As for horse stance, kick him in the groin tell him you will each and every time you see him doing that in a fight. It is a stance to be used in drills ONLY. It is supposed to build up leg strength and isolate the arms to help make blocks and the like faster for when you are doing it while sparring. Jeez, I mean, you wouldn't attempt to do squats to defend yourself.

Anyway, it seems that your TKD guy has a lot of bad habits to break. I know it kills you for me to say this, but once you manage to break those habits, you will actually improve his TKD. What TKD rank is/was he anyway? Black, almost black, beginner?



First, welcome back to the forums. It has been awhile.

I think you are underestimating the emphasis on not only kicks, but the speed of kicks in TKD. In order to realistically push someone over while they are kicking at you, you either need to be much faster than them, at a superior position than them or both. In that case, I would argue that you are the better martial artist and deserve to win.

For 2 of your 3 possibilities I don't think you will get the result you intend. Namely, the push and the punch to the mid section. There are a lot of difficulties with even executing this because if the TKDist is kicking it is at you and he is in a kicking distance away from you making punching or pushing rather difficult. Now, assuming that the punch or push was successfully executed, if the TKDist is decent, his leg will already be going back to the ground. So, you hope that you will send him tumbling to the ground will be dashed when it just causes him to shift weight a bit. (This really shouldn't be surprising. After all, there is a push that doesn't cause the TKDist to fall each and every time that he makes contact with a kick to a solid object.)

The third situation, with the grabbed leg, is the dangerous one. It is probably the single best argument for cross training, but that being said, any decent TKD school which isn't only playing the sport should teach the limited TKD defense against this. If they are slightly better, they should also reach out to other styles to patch up this weakness.

Yeah, I forgot to include the speed factor. Also to mention control conditions such as what is or isnt allowed.

As what you had stated., are per my posts 157, 158, and 160.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by john55

Is there a trend in TKD right now to do and/or incorporate hapkido as well? I feel like I keep seeing schools offering both lately.

Since I haven't been in TKD or a TKD school lately, I do not really know the current trend. Though, via my understanding of people I come in contact with, they are including other arts.

In the beginning, TKD was quickly promoted, especially by the Korean government (and boy, do I have a long explanation on this one), but there weren't enough teachers to do this. Hapkido instructors/practitioners gladly stuck their art alongside it. Therefore, one may find more Hapkido along TKD, then say, Yudo, Hawrang Do, etc.,

[WC_Lun]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

As I think most people have figured out, I tend to categorize "moves" into two area: Risk and Percentage.

With any type of roundhouse or spinning kick, they tend to be the type of technique that falls into the Low Percentage/High Risk category. This basically means that you aren't going to very often achieve the goal you were looking for with the move (a KO in this case) and if you miss you are left in a bad position yourself.

That doesn't mean it can't work, of course it can, but it's risky when compared to some other more efficient techniques.

Gotta give you kudos on this post. Many many times, a martial artist will say, "I can do this!" or "I can do that!" but the actual chance of achieving this or that is fairly low. Yes, a jumping spinning heal kick can knock someone out cold. However, the more likely scenerio if this technique if tried is you'll find yourself in trouble...especially against an experienced fighter. It is definitley a risk vs reward thing.

Originally Posted by Chapel

As for horse stance, kick him in the groin tell him you will each and every time you see him doing that in a fight. It is a stance to be used in drills ONLY. It is supposed to build up leg strength and isolate the arms to help make blocks and the like faster for when you are doing it while sparring. Jeez, I mean, you wouldn't attempt to do squats to defend yourself.


I think you are underestimating the emphasis on not only kicks, but the speed of kicks in TKD. In order to realistically push someone over while they are kicking at you, you either need to be much faster than them, at a superior position than them or both. In that case, I would argue that you are the better martial artist and deserve to win.

For 2 of your 3 possibilities I don't think you will get the result you intend. Namely, the push and the punch to the mid section. There are a lot of difficulties with even executing this because if the TKDist is kicking it is at you and he is in a kicking distance away from you making punching or pushing rather difficult. Now, assuming that the punch or push was successfully executed, if the TKDist is decent, his leg will already be going back to the ground. So, you hope that you will send him tumbling to the ground will be dashed when it just causes him to shift weight a bit. (This really shouldn't be surprising. After all, there is a push that doesn't cause the TKDist to fall each and every time that he makes contact with a kick to a solid object.)

The third situation, with the grabbed leg, is the dangerous one. It is probably the single best argument for cross training, but that being said, any decent TKD school which isn't only playing the sport should teach the limited TKD defense against this. If they are slightly better, they should also reach out to other styles to patch up this weakness.

I agree with you on the horse stance. I've heard people at tournaments and on the street tell other martial artist that Wing Chun fights out of ma bo ( horse stance ). This is a total fallacy, but is perputuated by people who don't understand why the first form is done almost entirely in ma bo.

I have to disagree with you a bit on kicking, Chapel. No human being, no matter how good thier kicking might be, is designed to have a solid base or balance while on one leg. This doesn't mean a person cannot be very good at fighting using kicks. However, it is not the most anatomically efficient way for a human being to move or fight.

Also if a good fighter gets in on you using solid structure and you are shifting weight from a kick, you are forced into a situation where you must start recovering because you are already a recoverey position when they reach you. That is akin to playing poker against a stacked deck. You just don't hold the cards to win.

Again, I'm not saying that TKD cannot be used for fighting. I have seen some very good TKD fighters. I have also seen a great many more TKD fighters that had no understanding of physics, anatomy, or that thier arms would raise above thier waist.

[47MartialMan]

Wow, my thread has come so far. Looks like just about everything was covered, could we add something different than what was already said, and/or seemingly repeated......

Wow, my thread has come so far. Looks like just about everything was covered, could we add something different than what was already said, and/or seemingly repeated......

[Chapel]

Originally Posted by john55

Is there a trend in TKD right now to do and/or incorporate hapkido as well? I feel like I keep seeing schools offering both lately.

The two styles compliment each other very well, they are both Korean and many TKD grandmasters also have high ranks in Hapkido. However, I don't know why schools now say they offer both. Maybe it just has to do with the bad name TKD has in some circles?

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

I think he is a red belt. But I'm not really sure. His techniques isn't bad it's just that it doesn't fit in well with boxing or MT. I'd have to see what you are talking about to really get it, you know what I mean?

When I get a chance I'll take some pics/video to illustrate the difference. TKD can fit with boxing, but I am not sure about MT. The major compromise that has to be made is with the regular fighting stance (TKD is very closed, boxing is very open).

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Chapel

The two styles compliment each other very well, they are both Korean and many TKD grandmasters also have high ranks in Hapkido. However, I don't know why schools now say they offer both. Maybe it just has to do with the bad name TKD has in some circles?

Indeed. Somewhat what I was alluding to.

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Originally Posted by Chapel

The two styles compliment each other very well, they are both Korean and many TKD grandmasters also have high ranks in Hapkido. However, I don't know why schools now say they offer both. Maybe it just has to do with the bad name TKD has in some circles?



When I get a chance I'll take some pics/video to illustrate the difference. TKD can fit with boxing, but I am not sure about MT. The major compromise that has to be made is with the regular fighting stance (TKD is very closed, boxing is very open).

I would really appreciate that!!!!!!

[SirokiFighter]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

Do you think people have too many misconceptions and/or prejudices of certain information resulting from current projections or little exposure?

in a way yes. in a way no.

[daddydiboy]

[quote=TRIANGLEFROMGAURD;76293]Ali and some boxers in general bounce but it is completely different. In boxing you never throw with out your feet planted also in close you stay with your feet planted and use head movement, Ali was great at this. Bouncing shows that you have good conditioning and makes it hard to lock in on your head. Some boxers will box in retreat as well. Ali also never switched to a south paw stance he always stayed orthodox.

This bring us back to my point earlier, it is human nature to fight with your two feet o the ground.

[nascarmike71]

A big thanks to all who posted on this, it makes me appretiate the training i have received. We did free sparring in my TKD training. My Kenpo training had point sparring. Both had solid self defense tactics.As for chambering, it is a training tool to teach you to get you entire body into the technigue. Both times i've had to defend myself my training has saved me from taking a beating. I think in all styles you have good/bad schools. Your brain is always your best weapon in any situation. Stances are to teach balance not for actual use in SD situations.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by SirokiFighter

in a way yes. in a way no.

Please post a example of each...thanks

[47MartialMan]

[quote=daddydiboy;76387]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

Ali and some boxers in general bounce but it is completely different. In boxing you never throw with out your feet planted also in close you stay with your feet planted and use head movement, Ali was great at this. Bouncing shows that you have good conditioning and makes it hard to lock in on your head. Some boxers will box in retreat as well. Ali also never switched to a south paw stance he always stayed orthodox.

This bring us back to my point earlier, it is human nature to fight with your two feet o the ground.

But the bouncing per Bruce Lee, Ali, boxers, are generally in spar/competition, not defense.

So, when TKDers do it, per spar/competition, in accordance to their style (as going against their own), and if they realise it is something that it is not defense applicable, why is it so bad?


.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by nascarmike71

A big thanks to all who posted on this, it makes me appretiate the training i have received. We did free sparring in my TKD training. My Kenpo training had point sparring. Both had solid self defense tactics.As for chambering, it is a training tool to teach you to get you entire body into the technigue. Both times i've had to defend myself my training has saved me from taking a beating. I think in all styles you have good/bad schools. Your brain is always your best weapon in any situation. Stances are to teach balance not for actual use in SD situations.

Kudos. Good point. Though I think it has been mention stances are for form, balance, routine and not defense.

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

[quote=daddydiboy;76387]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

Ali and some boxers in general bounce but it is completely different. In boxing you never throw with out your feet planted also in close you stay with your feet planted and use head movement, Ali was great at this. Bouncing shows that you have good conditioning and makes it hard to lock in on your head. Some boxers will box in retreat as well. Ali also never switched to a south paw stance he always stayed orthodox.

This bring us back to my point earlier, it is human nature to fight with your two feet o the ground.

I'm in complete agreement with you.

[quote=47MartialMan;76402]

Originally Posted by daddydiboy

But the bouncing per Bruce Lee, Ali, boxers, are generally in spar/competition, not defense.

So, when TKDers do it, per spar/competition, in accordance to their style (as going against their own), and if they realise it is something that it is not defense applicable, why is it so bad?


.

Really trying not to get irritated. Did you read my post? I think Bruce is awesome but, I don't consider him a fighter, so why did he bounce I don't know it looked good on camera? Boxers bounce as I just stated a few posts ago is done at a distance to increase head movement. Boxers IN GENERAL do not switch their lead foot changing from orthodox to south paw. Boxers plant or STOP bouncing when they throw a technique, except for the jab which can be thrown from either but, needs to be modified. When in close boxers will NOT bounce they will use head and shoulder movement instead.

TKD bounce into their techniques, they switch their lead foot. This is very very icky!!!

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Originally Posted by nascarmike71

A big thanks to all who posted on this, it makes me appretiate the training i have received. We did free sparring in my TKD training. My Kenpo training had point sparring. Both had solid self defense tactics.As for chambering, it is a training tool to teach you to get you entire body into the technigue. Both times i've had to defend myself my training has saved me from taking a beating. I think in all styles you have good/bad schools. Your brain is always your best weapon in any situation. Stances are to teach balance not for actual use in SD situations.

Isn't their a better way to teach balance then fighting techniques that won't be used?