In Denial

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Shinobi_Kokujin

yeah, the reality of fighting resisting opponents

Resisting the opponent, or the opponent is resisting?

[Shinobi_Kokujin]

hmmmmmm both

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Shinobi_Kokujin

hmmmmmm both

Explain what is meant by either....

[Shinobi_Kokujin]

defending and countering against opponent's attacks while they defend against your attacks instead of being

a compliant partner scenerio

[JoaNor]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

There are many in Korea, whom do not train in TKD for the Olmpics/Sport. This is another TKD/Korea, misconception.

Glad you pointed this out

[souldrum71]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

The TKD bashers are out there. Yet, this art seem to gain popularity and enjoyed by youngsters....

Is most of the bashing from other martial artists or the general populace.....

Schools are like doughnut shops....just about every where and plentiful.

Is it envy, Mcdojoish, Popularity....why does TKD seem to always get a focal point?

Why are there those who've studied it claim not to have or claim it isnt good only after a few years of training or testing others from it with less skill?

I think the availability and popularity of TKD are what make it such a target for nay-sayers. Yes, there are a lot of dojangs out there that are belt factories and care more about profits than about the art. However, there are also good schools that have solid instructors who really do care about advancing the art as well as the sport.
From a personal standpoint, I first tried out TKD in 1993, when I first got back from military service in Japan. The school that I went to was a total McDojang that professed 'taekwondo plus.' I'm still wondering what the 'plus' was for. The training, instruction, and even tournaments were all geared toward that chain of schools making money. It sucked. So when I quit after a few months, I had a really bad taste in my mouth for TKD. I assumed all TKD was like that. It took a very long time and a really excellent instructor to change my mind. The point is it only takes one bad experience with a TKD McDojang to turn someone (and possibly all their friends and family) against the style.

[Joemoplata]

I think the reason people don't look at TKD as a serious form of self defense is because of the rules of competition. In Olympic TKD you can't even punch to the face.

[john55]

TKD does have some really good points, but it is a sport. Most people train it to spar/fight other TKD fighters under their rules. TKD doesnt really include fighting from the clinch, grabs, takedowns, throws, or ground fighting. It also doesnt really include certain strikes such as elbows and knees and doesnt want you to kick below the belt. There just isnt a real self defense aspect to it. Now it does include some of those things I mentioned above, but they are few and far and are not focused on.

Another problem is that a lot of TKD people arent the athletic types. I dont mean that all people who take TKD arent atheltic. What I mean is that when I walk into a boxing, wrestling, or bjj gym, Everyone is big, lifts weights, and has excelled in sports for the most part from my experience. This is not the case for TKD. There are families, kids, etc in the sport. The problem is that these people think they are prepared to fight, so its a big false sense of reality that could really hurt them. Now am I saying that TKD is not practical, NO. It can be used for self defense and provides a decent base for people but its just not usually trained to in most schools that I have seen at least.

For example, at my school a few of the black belts were training some type of headlock escape. There was no force involved and they were showing how you could just roll out of it. The headlocks looked like something you see on a TV show. I wanted to put a rear naked choke on one of them to see if they could get out of it. It just wasnt realistic. I doubt their elbow in the rib would release an attacker, but who knows, no one has ever tried the stuff out. They didnt even understand the mechanics of the headlock or anything that is usually fully explained during a bjj practice on headlocks. O, and by the way, no other belts were allowed to practice the escapes. For some reason, you are only allowed to learn self defense moves when you are at a certain level. Who wants to train for 4 years then be able to learn about a headlock?

[complete]

Originally Posted by john55

TKD does have some really good points, but it is a sport. Most people train it to spar/fight other TKD fighters under their rules. TKD doesnt really include fighting from the clinch, grabs, takedowns, throws, or ground fighting. It also doesnt really include certain strikes such as elbows and knees and doesnt want you to kick below the belt. There just isnt a real self defense aspect to it. Now it does include some of those things I mentioned above, but they are few and far and are not focused on.

Another problem is that a lot of TKD people arent the athletic types. I dont mean that all people who take TKD arent atheltic. What I mean is that when I walk into a boxing, wrestling, or bjj gym, Everyone is big, lifts weights, and has excelled in sports for the most part from my experience. This is not the case for TKD. There are families, kids, etc in the sport. The problem is that these people think they are prepared to fight, so its a big false sense of reality that could really hurt them. Now am I saying that TKD is not practical, NO. It can be used for self defense and provides a decent base for people but its just not usually trained to in most schools that I have seen at least.

For example, at my school a few of the black belts were training some type of headlock escape. There was no force involved and they were showing how you could just roll out of it. The headlocks looked like something you see on a TV show. I wanted to put a rear naked choke on one of them to see if they could get out of it. It just wasnt realistic. I doubt their elbow in the rib would release an attacker, but who knows, no one has ever tried the stuff out. They didnt even understand the mechanics of the headlock or anything that is usually fully explained during a bjj practice on headlocks. O, and by the way, no other belts were allowed to practice the escapes. For some reason, you are only allowed to learn self defense moves when you are at a certain level. Who wants to train for 4 years then be able to learn about a headlock?

I certainly don't deny that those situation mentioned above does occur in TKD schools. This art can be used for effective self defense but as sports aspect is more popular, it's much harder to find school that's not so sports oriented.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

I think the reason people don't look at TKD as a serious form of self defense is because of the rules of competition. In Olympic TKD you can't even punch to the face.

Well in wrestling and boxing you cant hit the groin....

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by complete

I certainly don't deny that those situation mentioned above does occur in TKD schools. This art can be used for effective self defense but as sports aspect is more popular, it's much harder to find school that's not so sports oriented.

Because money cant be made if it was strictly SD.

May father always said, if you can market something that kids like, youll succeed....

[JoaNor]

Originally Posted by john55

TKD does have some really good points, but it is a sport. Most people train it to spar/fight other TKD fighters under their rules. TKD doesnt really include fighting from the clinch, grabs, takedowns, throws, or ground fighting. It also doesnt really include certain strikes such as elbows and knees and doesnt want you to kick below the belt. There just isnt a real self defense aspect to it. Now it does include some of those things I mentioned above, but they are few and far and are not focused on.

Another problem is that a lot of TKD people arent the athletic types. I dont mean that all people who take TKD arent atheltic. What I mean is that when I walk into a boxing, wrestling, or bjj gym, Everyone is big, lifts weights, and has excelled in sports for the most part from my experience. This is not the case for TKD. There are families, kids, etc in the sport. The problem is that these people think they are prepared to fight, so its a big false sense of reality that could really hurt them. Now am I saying that TKD is not practical, NO. It can be used for self defense and provides a decent base for people but its just not usually trained to in most schools that I have seen at least.

For example, at my school a few of the black belts were training some type of headlock escape. There was no force involved and they were showing how you could just roll out of it. The headlocks looked like something you see on a TV show. I wanted to put a rear naked choke on one of them to see if they could get out of it. It just wasnt realistic. I doubt their elbow in the rib would release an attacker, but who knows, no one has ever tried the stuff out. They didnt even understand the mechanics of the headlock or anything that is usually fully explained during a bjj practice on headlocks. O, and by the way, no other belts were allowed to practice the escapes. For some reason, you are only allowed to learn self defense moves when you are at a certain level. Who wants to train for 4 years then be able to learn about a headlock?

Luckily, my school is a lot more serious than this school appears to be...

Now, this all depends on what type of school you're going to, doesn't it? My school teaches all aspects of TaeKwonDo (Except for Trad. Hanja writing and understanding), so you can't say schools only teach some aspects of TKD.
What I believe makes a good TKD school is:
They teach all/most aspects of TKD (Meditation, Self Defense, Poomsae etc.)
The teacher(s) is/are trained & certified by KukkiWon
The teacher must be good at the art (Well known around the province/country)
The teachers must be strict, and make the practitioners respect the art and its history.
The students must pass some tests before they are allowed to join the school, and only the ones who pass all the tests are allowed to join the club. (e.g. Fitness test and strength test - etc)
The school teaches ONLY ONE ART (Even though HapKiDo and TKD go hand in hand, they should not be practiced as a combination)
---- I'll add more later, I gotta go to class

[john55]

The teachers must be strict, and make the practitioners respect the art and its history.

Why must the teacher be strict? This isnt the military. They should act no different than a sport coach. They are not your master, even though they may be a master of the art. I dont even understand why they would want to be referred to as such.

Maybe that stuff is good for kids, but when you are 30 years old, and hold a degree such as a doctor, you shouldnt need to call a 14 year old sir, or Mr. and bow to them. One of the first things I learned at medical school is that its much better to get on a first name basis with patients as they will respect and trust you more.

What does strict have to do with respect and learning? If you can find me anything in the education or ed psychology literature that agrees with that then I would support it. But I can promise you that it says the opposite (I hold an advanced degree in education a s well).

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

Well in wrestling and boxing you cant hit the groin....

Can you do that in Olympic TKD?

I'm going to be blatantly honest right now. TKD while in my opinion is a good art and, some of the guys I've seen from Korea are pretty bad a**. Most of the American TKD I've seen is pretty much hot garbage. It's not that the art is bad but, TKD schools in America have really found their niche and that is soccer moms. Soccer moms will spend loads of money on their kids and TKD in America focuses on that demographic. Thats why when you walk into a TKD school you're likely to see a 14 or 15 year old black belt doing wheel kicks. That is very impressive to a mother of another teen but, to most other martial artists we're not that impressed. Also in the fight community we don't think very highly of TKD simply because they mainly do point sparring.

I remember an early fight of mine, it was at a bar in NWI called Finkies they use to do NHB iron man competitions with the winner taking home something like $1000, my first fight was against a TKD black belt, I remember being nervous because it was the first time I fought a black belt under MMA rules. He landed a really good round house to my mid section but, did nothing afterward I was like ok good night then and dropped him with a left cross. The thing is if he would have trained to be a fighter I'm not saying he would of beat me, because I'm really awesome , but it would have been a longer fight for sure.

The point that I've always stated is that it's not so much what you train, and I really believe that to be true people, it's how you train. So before you TKD people start throwing flying cresent kicks my way. Realize I said most American TKD not all. You me be a total bad a** I don't know.

Cheers and goodluck training.

[john55]

I have to agree its how you train. Thats what I love about bjj. We can train really hard. I also have to say that training that way would never appeal to soccer moms. If they watched one bjj class, they would never, never let their kids participate. But I guess if there was a kids class, as there are at certain schools, they would.

I think last night I walked away with a huge blister on my foot from mat burn, a cut on my hand, and coughing from choke hold. But I learned a lot from the session. I am also learning how fight bigger and stronger guys.

I think in a real self defense situation, those bigger stronger guys would be the ones I would be up against, so its great practice. Being a little guy, I am realizing that if I punched/kicked someone bigger than me, they wouldnt go down unless I got really lucky because I just dont have the weight and power to back them up and if they landed one punch on me, I would go down. I think bjj is the only way for me to stand a chance against them at this point.

But TKD is good for stand up, although I think boxing/MT are probably better from a self defense aspect. TKD doesnt teach how to stand, punch, duck, block the way boxers do...and I cant figure that out for the life of me.