In Denial

[WC_Lun]

Originally Posted by Hendrik1

Firstly - its meant to learn you to give 100%... putting 50% effort into a punch or kick is no good... Agree?
Secondly - from a self defense point of view - if you're attacked in the street, and you counter with a proper side kick to the knee (which you learn to do proper with 100%) - the fight is over. Or will your attacker continue to fight with a broken knee?

Which mindset would you learn your student? To attack and counter for 30minutes or to go full out to finish the fight?





My bad - yes it's spelled sine. If you think about it, using your knee as a "spring" to put your whole body weight into a punch is going to be more powerful than just throwing a punch

First off I gotta give you props for at least posting back. NOw I'll explain my thinking gained from my experience in many martial arts.

Yes, a student should be trained to give %100 until the fight is over. However, training the one shot-one kill mentality trains a student to STOP after his first offensive technique or counter lands. Why do they stop, because they believe that whatever technique they throw is going to work or be effective and real fights just don't work that way. To use you example of side kick to the knee. What happens if the person you side kick rolls or collapses his knee or moves his leg avoiding the blow all together? With a person trained in the one shot-one kill thinking they will probably now be out of position with poor defense because they thought the fight was over. Even worse is when they strike someone that can take those shots. Then you have the fighter that over-commits, making his technique worthles and easy to counter. I have seen this time and again with people trained primarily as point fighters. You will fight how you train.

I know what a sine wave is. I don't have to look it up. I've also heard of this analogy when it comes to fighting and it is bunk. I know that if human body motion resembles a sine wave then there are multiple things wrong with its structure as it relates to fighting. This causes the centerline to shift top away from bottom, moving your point of balance too far in one direction or another. Yes, you are creating some whipping action, but you are also causing parts of your body to not be over/under your hips. This will rob power from your strike. It will also make you very vulnerable to attacks on your centerline and grabs and throws, because your balance is not proper. Striking with your sine wave theory also makes it easier to see what you are doing and isolate the technique away from your body. That can be really bad news because that is an excellent way of opening up pressure points or at the very least controlling an appendage for a throw. It robs you of some mobility and finally it slows down your technique. I'm sure you've heard the saying, "When fighting, the mind and body move as one." There is a lot of truth to this. Its not "When fighting, the mind moves, then this part of the body, then that part of the body, and finally the other part of the body." Martial arts is a study of human anatomy and physics as much as anything else. Doesn't matter what you study, the laws of physics and the way the human body is built does not change. Sine wave theory goes against some of those laws.

I have nothing against Tae Kwon Do. I've known some very fine TKD fighters who knew what they were doing. I do however, have a great deal against teaching students flawed concepts upon which to base thier entire knowledge and training on. It does a great diservice to those students.

[Shinobi_Kokujin]

Originally Posted by Hendrik1

1) PLEASE remember there is LOTS of different Taekwondo styles:
- ITF (Internation Taekwondo Federation)
- WTF (World Taekwondo Federation)
- GTF (Global Taekwondo Federation)

There is some similarities but LOTS of differences between the styles. WTF is more sparring focussed, ITF more self-defence and forms.



This must be GTF - ITF and WTF has white doboks.



It "looks" nice but I promise you there is NO power in any of his strikes. And the "sounds effects" is actually (supposed to be) breath control and plays a big part in TKD (well in ITF anyway). His moves is more KARATE than Taekwondo.

ITF has full sign-wave to generate power, is self-defence focussed, and you learn one blow is enough to finish the fight!

there are different Tae Kwon Do orgs.....and schools under those different orgs have training methods that vary.

but to say that WTF is more sparring based vice ITF is a Broad generalization that people from ITF or WTF say to try and make it seem like theres this big difference between WTF and ITF its all Taekwondo and stuff like this makes Taekwondo a victim of divide and conquoer.


that school link i posted is WTF. some WTF or ITF schools may use different uniforms other than the traditional white Dobok.

how did you come to the conclusion that the guy getting his belt test is more Karate than Taekwondo?.....i dont get that one. didnt Taekwondo come from Karate?

Taekwondo and Karate people move a little similar its just that Taekwondo people tend to have more of an arsenal of leg strikes

[john55]

Secondly - from a self defense point of view - if you're attacked in the street, and you counter with a proper side kick to the knee (which you learn to do proper with 100%) - the fight is over. Or will your attacker continue to fight with a broken knee?

Does TKD even train kicking below the belt? I have never seen TKD sparring that practices this. Thats what I dont get. Most TKDers say they will do this or that but havent even trained it. (im not saying your school didnt practice kicks to the knee but most do not)

And while a sidekick can be a great movement, what if you are too close to the person for the kick? That is the main problem. Tkd is great at a distance, but as soon as you get into the clinch, there isnt much.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Hendrik1

WOW - I didn't think I'd get this amount of (negative) response.

Hello Hendrik1.

First, to explain, this is a forum of people from many countries/cultures. As with any language, there are sub-dialects/slang that create a barrier for understanding. Therefore, people will read and take things out of context.

Second, martial arts is vast in its many styles and cultures, just like language, terminology will be different. However, the actual appplications are the same. So with this, a rose by any other name is still a rose.

Third, of course you are going to get opposite/feedback on what you post. We all do. Thats the beauty of a open forum of people from many countries/cultures. This opposite/feedback, most of the time is not meant as a personal attack. But as with any subject, people are intense. Therefore, their opinions are going to be also. People are entitled to what their opinions are, even when they don't agree.

Fourth, some of these opposite/feedeback may seem harsh as people will use humor attached. Again, humor, like language/communication, can be misunderstood.


Fifth, Now that you had posted again explaining yourself in a little more detail with a little more conviction, lets discuss;

Originally Posted by Hendrik1

Firstly - its meant to learn you to give 100%... putting 50% effort into a punch or kick is no good... Agree?

I agree whole-heartenly with this statement. However, just as long as one realises that the chance of one-strike ending it all, is slim. It is best to have a arsenal of many in order to complete the defense. (Think of it as a spare tire for a car)

Originally Posted by Hendrik1

Secondly - from a self defense point of view - if you're attacked in the street, and you counter with a proper side kick to the knee (which you learn to do proper with 100%) - the fight is over. Or will your attacker continue to fight with a broken knee?

I somewhat disagree. Though I agree, per my above that training 100% should be emphasized, as I had stated, one-shot tactics are rare. In all of my exoperiences and observations, I've seen many failed attempts at kicking to the knee (and groin). As per my above, it would be best to have many things going, then relying on "one". In other words, "not putting all of the eggs in one basket"

Originally Posted by Hendrik1

Which mindset would you learn your student? To attack and counter for 30minutes or to go full out to finish the fight?

Well, if by "learn", you mean "teach", then there is a line drawn on how and when. I rather teach my students 30 minutes of proper execution, or 30 minutes of using many tactics, then to tell them one-shot is all it takes. Also, I rather teach them some control, responsibilty (including legal ramifications) and humility, than to train them in a complete mind set to go full out. (Though we do practice full-sometimes) Like I said; there is a line drawn on how and when.

Originally Posted by Hendrik1

My bad - yes it's spelled sine. If you think about it, using your knee as a "spring" to put your whole body weight into a punch is going to be more powerful than just throwing a punch?

Your use of the word "sine" is uncorrect, if you are using it to describe a action such as a kick.

Originally Posted by Hendrik1

Not one of you asked what is meant by breath control. Not one of you asked what is sine wave. ?? Easier just to shoot off with negative comments?

In the example of my post per "First" through "Fifth", sometimes we all have to post again explaining ourselves as others may have misunderstood. So with this, I look forward to read your explanation of what you term as "breath control".

Originally Posted by Hendrik1

Sorry I come from a completely different background of learning... Why not have a look on youtube for ITF Taekwondo and see what it's about before making negative comments about something you know nothing about?

Looking at videos will not do justice. Keeping your composure, explaining yourself with conviction and perseverance, will do better.

Peace,

Richard

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by john55

Does TKD even train kicking below the belt? I have never seen TKD sparring that practices this. Thats what I dont get. Most TKDers say they will do this or that but havent even trained it. (im not saying your school didnt practice kicks to the knee but most do not)

And while a sidekick can be a great movement, what if you are too close to the person for the kick? That is the main problem. Tkd is great at a distance, but as soon as you get into the clinch, there isnt much.

My TKD instructor did teach/practice low kicks when doing SD sets.

People have the misconception that TKD is about high kicks, or all kicking.

I just read WC's post and I like it...

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by WC_Lun

First off I gotta give you props for at least posting back. NOw I'll explain my thinking gained from my experience in many martial arts.

Yes, a student should be trained to give %100 until the fight is over. However, training the one shot-one kill mentality trains a student to STOP after his first offensive technique or counter lands. Why do they stop, because they believe that whatever technique they throw is going to work or be effective and real fights just don't work that way. To use you example of side kick to the knee. What happens if the person you side kick rolls or collapses his knee or moves his leg avoiding the blow all together? With a person trained in the one shot-one kill thinking they will probably now be out of position with poor defense because they thought the fight was over. Even worse is when they strike someone that can take those shots. Then you have the fighter that over-commits, making his technique worthles and easy to counter. I have seen this time and again with people trained primarily as point fighters. You will fight how you train.

I know what a sine wave is. I don't have to look it up. I've also heard of this analogy when it comes to fighting and it is bunk. I know that if human body motion resembles a sine wave then there are multiple things wrong with its structure as it relates to fighting. This causes the centerline to shift top away from bottom, moving your point of balance too far in one direction or another. Yes, you are creating some whipping action, but you are also causing parts of your body to not be over/under your hips. This will rob power from your strike. It will also make you very vulnerable to attacks on your centerline and grabs and throws, because your balance is not proper. Striking with your sine wave theory also makes it easier to see what you are doing and isolate the technique away from your body. That can be really bad news because that is an excellent way of opening up pressure points or at the very least controlling an appendage for a throw. It robs you of some mobility and finally it slows down your technique. I'm sure you've heard the saying, "When fighting, the mind and body move as one." There is a lot of truth to this. Its not "When fighting, the mind moves, then this part of the body, then that part of the body, and finally the other part of the body." Martial arts is a study of human anatomy and physics as much as anything else. Doesn't matter what you study, the laws of physics and the way the human body is built does not change. Sine wave theory goes against some of those laws.

I have nothing against Tae Kwon Do. I've known some very fine TKD fighters who knew what they were doing. I do however, have a great deal against teaching students flawed concepts upon which to base thier entire knowledge and training on. It does a great diservice to those students.

You are truly amazing. Though in some things, we may have our different " views/opinions ", most of your posts are informative explanations on what you have come to understand, accept, dicuss, and convey.

With that, they are very constructive.


KUDOS! and + Rep


Richard

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Ok let the truth rain and therefore reign. The frequency (by which I mane the rate at which sound fluctuates) nor the volume nor the phrase of you kia will effect the power of your strike. If you are breathing out thus forcing your muscles to expand you will achieve power I don't care if you are singing it's raining men, you're all good.

Now the knee thing. Strikes to the knee are not 100% effective in fact it is probably way harder to do then you think. I've been kicked full force in the knee inadvertently and yep I'm still walking, in fact I was also kicked in the groin twice during that fight and still went on to win.

So to summarize breathing out good, very good in fact. Knee strikes are ok but, don't put all of your eggs into one basket.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

Ok let the truth rain and therefore reign. The frequency (by which I mane the rate at which sound fluctuates) nor the volume nor the phrase of you kia will effect the power of your strike. If you are breathing out thus forcing your muscles to expand you will achieve power I don't care if you are singing it's raining men, you're all good.

Now the knee thing. Strikes to the knee are not 100% effective in fact it is probably way harder to do then you think. I've been kicked full force in the knee inadvertently and yep I'm still walking, in fact I was also kicked in the groin twice during that fight and still went on to win.

So to summarize breathing out good, very good in fact. Knee strikes are ok but, don't put all of your eggs into one basket.

Hey, your'e stealing my line...my post 64......

[WC_Lun]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

You are truly amazing. Though in some things, we may have our different " views/opinions ", most of your posts are informative explanations on what you have come to understand, accept, dicuss, and convey.

With that, they are very constructive.


KUDOS! and + Rep


Richard

Thanks man _

[TRIANGLEFROMGAURD]

Originally Posted by 47MartialMan

Hey, your'e stealing my line...my post 64......

Ha I totally did! I'll change it ummmm don't out all your nickels into one slot? Whatever I tried

[john55]

I have to agree with the groin thing. I have been kicked there and still went on.

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGAURD

Now the knee thing. Strikes to the knee are not 100% effective in fact it is probably way harder to do then you think. I've been kicked full force in the knee inadvertently and yep I'm still walking, in fact I was also kicked in the groin twice during that fight and still went on to win.

Originally Posted by john55

I have to agree with the groin thing. I have been kicked there and still went on.

Those that have been kicked in the groin may have small testicles.

Wait a minute, I've been strucked/kicked there a few times also.....

But I practice Iron Ball Kung Fu !!!!


Seriously, such shots seem to be effective by fluke or chance, and never when they are desired/intended

[Shinobi_Kokujin]

Originally Posted by john55

Does TKD even train kicking below the belt? I have never seen TKD sparring that practices this. Thats what I dont get. Most TKDers say they will do this or that but havent even trained it. (im not saying your school didnt practice kicks to the knee but most do not)

And while a sidekick can be a great movement, what if you are too close to the person for the kick? That is the main problem. Tkd is great at a distance, but as soon as you get into the clinch, there isnt much.

some TKD schools train in kicking below the belt or other body parts in self defense training.

the school im from in Korea also teaches moves that were banned from competition TKD for use on the street or if u end up in a hand to hand situation on a military deployment against an enemy

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by Shinobi_Kokujin

some TKD schools train in kicking below the belt or other body parts in self defense training.

Per my post 65....

Originally Posted by Shinobi_Kokujin

the school im from in Korea also teaches moves that were banned from competition TKD for use on the street or if u end up in a hand to hand situation on a military deployment against an enemy

But I doubt it is actually TKD if taught in the military

[SirokiFighter]

Originally Posted by john55

I have to agree with the groin thing. I have been kicked there and still went on.

yup me too. i think a big problem is many schools train with the idea that strking at eyes, or hitting the groin, and biting will solve evrything.

with the whole tkd subject. i dont really care how other schools train, as long as i know how i am training and how effective it is. and if someone wants to underestimate me for doing practicing TKD then better for me.