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john 55 you are a smart man & it sounds like you just have not been to the right TKD dojang, you will find good & bad schools in all styles. The right school will make you and the wrong one will break you. I think it is safe to say that whatever style you train, a street fight is a totally unique thing and does not bear likeness to any formal training.
john 55 you are a smart man & it sounds like you just have not been to the right TKD dojang, you will find good & bad schools in all styles. The right school will make you and the wrong one will break you. I think it is safe to say that whatever style you train, a street fight is a totally unique thing and does not bear likeness to any formal training.
We try to get as close to the real thing in some training.....
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
john 55 you are a smart man & it sounds like you just have not been to the right TKD dojang, you will find good & bad schools in all styles. The right school will make you and the wrong one will break you. I think it is safe to say that whatever style you train, a street fight is a totally unique thing and does not bear likeness to any formal training.
I have been to several TKD do schools and I think they were both decent, not as much of the mcdojo types as others but they did have kids with black belts. I think TKD has its uses and is a good art to study and practice, plus it is fun, a good workout, and great for families. Teaches respect, etc.
As far as self defense, there isnt any realistic training involved from what I have seen. In sparring, there were no kicks below the waist, no takedowns, not really any grabs, no taking the fight to the ground, no clinch, no knees, no elbows, no headbutts, and no grappling. Now other TKD schools may do this stuff when they spar, but my question is, is that really TKD? From what I have seen, TKD does not include that stuff, so those schools are borrowing from other arts, which I think is great but its not really TKD and some think it is.
The other problem I have is the false sense of security instructors give their students. While confidence is great, thinking you can defend yourself when you cannot could get you very hurt. TKD is great for keeping the fight at a distance. But, without realistic training, you revert to your natural instincts and all training goes out the window. That is why you need to spar realistically to get those movements into your natural fighting ability. One punch/kick to a certain area is not going to stop an attacker in most cases but more or less make them mad. But as TKD practioners we dont even know that because no one has ever tried this stuff out.
As I have said before, every TKD dojo I have went to has kids that are black belts and good portion of the students who are high belts are out of shape. I am not speaking for everyone though. Each school I was at also had some advanced students that could really kick butt. Now I have checked out several bjj schools. Pretty much all of the students were in great shape and athletic. They sparred full speed to actually practice what was learned to see if it could actually defend you. They were in great shape because their classes made you work out a lot. You practice against big and small sized people with different abilities. Plus all of the high belts were adults who could really kick some butt and had proved it in competition.
Now do I think TKD is bad or am I trying to put it down, NO. I am just trying to point out misconceptions that are unfortunately taught to its students.
I have been to several TKD do schools and I think they were both decent, not as much of the mcdojo types as others but they did have kids with black belts. I think TKD has its uses and is a good art to study and practice, plus it is fun, a good workout, and great for families. Teaches respect, etc.
As far as self defense, there isnt any realistic training involved from what I have seen. In sparring, there were no kicks below the waist, no takedowns, not really any grabs, no taking the fight to the ground, no clinch, no knees, no elbows, no headbutts, and no grappling. Now other TKD schools may do this stuff when they spar, but my question is, is that really TKD? From what I have seen, TKD does not include that stuff, so those schools are borrowing from other arts, which I think is great but its not really TKD and some think it is.
The other problem I have is the false sense of security instructors give their students. While confidence is great, thinking you can defend yourself when you cannot could get you very hurt. TKD is great for keeping the fight at a distance. But, without realistic training, you revert to your natural instincts and all training goes out the window. That is why you need to spar realistically to get those movements into your natural fighting ability. One punch/kick to a certain area is not going to stop an attacker in most cases but more or less make them mad. But as TKD practioners we dont even know that because no one has ever tried this stuff out.
As I have said before, every TKD dojo I have went to has kids that are black belts and good portion of the students who are high belts are out of shape. I am not speaking for everyone though. Each school I was at also had some advanced students that could really kick butt. Now I have checked out several bjj schools. Pretty much all of the students were in great shape and athletic. They sparred full speed to actually practice what was learned to see if it could actually defend you. They were in great shape because their classes made you work out a lot. You practice against big and small sized people with different abilities. Plus all of the high belts were adults who could really kick some butt and had proved it in competition.
Now do I think TKD is bad or am I trying to put it down, NO. I am just trying to point out misconceptions that are unfortunately taught to its students.
what youve expierienced is sport tkd. sport tkd has not been around, or at least popular for that long. when i was studying we were aloud to punch to face, and work alot on hands, and we kick to legs were i trained.
how is that borrowing other arts? i dont get? a tkd scholl that punches to the face is borrowing from another art? or is it they just punch to face and kick below waste.
i think whole tkd rules that are in place now, came because of people who go to U.S., and other country's to try and make tkd spread. why not many people used to not be involved in martial arts due to how demanding they are, and the amount of time it takes. so they say you get black belt in 2 years, and make the art really i guess unpainful. this is what i believe. is i say before we punch to face, and kick below waste.
i practice tkd in fighting era. today is a sport era. today they mostly train sport, not actually self defense, or actual fighting? everybody i train with was in great shape. and could fight. simply put it, things now are different. this is big problem with all martial arts today.
what youve expierienced is sport tkd. sport tkd has not been around, or at least popular for that long. when i was studying we were aloud to punch to face, and work alot on hands, and we kick to legs were i trained.
how is that borrowing other arts? i dont get? a tkd scholl that punches to the face is borrowing from another art? or is it they just punch to face and kick below waste.
i think whole tkd rules that are in place now, came because of people who go to U.S., and other country's to try and make tkd spread. why not many people used to not be involved in martial arts due to how demanding they are, and the amount of time it takes. so they say you get black belt in 2 years, and make the art really i guess unpainful. this is what i believe. is i say before we punch to face, and kick below waste.
i practice tkd in fighting era. today is a sport era. today they mostly train sport, not actually self defense, or actual fighting? everybody i train with was in great shape. and could fight. simply put it, things now are different. this is big problem with all martial arts today.
is possible what evrybody see now is not tkd?
I never said we couldnt punch to the face. I never said using hands or punching to the face was not TKD. Where are you seeing that in my post? Please show me. Both of my schools allowed us to punch to the face. It was the fact that there were no or few elbow/knees, no clinch, no throws, no ground, no joint locks. Does you school allow that stuff in sparring? If not, then it is sport, not real. Does you school train that? From your post, it appears that it does not, but you do kick below the waist.
TKD is great for creating the distance. It is not a complete art and therefore you need to crosstrain in other things like judo/bjj. Just as if you train bjj, you should do a stand up. The difference is that in bjj you are training to really fight. TKD has a lot of moves that are not useful for sparring or real fighting and it creates a false sense of security that i think is dangerous. I dont blame the art for this, I blame teachers who dont tell their students that they are not trained fighters. I think many TKD students believe they are trained fighters and watch too many movies and not enough NHB matches. If your TKD school trains the way Muay Tai guys train, then you are probably really training to fight. I have never heard of TKD schools that train like that though and if they did, they would be cutting out a lot their moves because a lot of them arent for real fighting.
I have been to several TKD do schools and I think they were both decent, not as much of the mcdojo types as others but they did have kids with black belts. I think TKD has its uses and is a good art to study and practice, plus it is fun, a good workout, and great for families. Teaches respect, etc.
As far as self defense, there isnt any realistic training involved from what I have seen. In sparring, there were no kicks below the waist, no takedowns, not really any grabs, no taking the fight to the ground, no clinch, no knees, no elbows, no headbutts, and no grappling. Now other TKD schools may do this stuff when they spar, but my question is, is that really TKD? From what I have seen, TKD does not include that stuff, so those schools are borrowing from other arts, which I think is great but its not really TKD and some think it is.
The other problem I have is the false sense of security instructors give their students. While confidence is great, thinking you can defend yourself when you cannot could get you very hurt. TKD is great for keeping the fight at a distance. But, without realistic training, you revert to your natural instincts and all training goes out the window. That is why you need to spar realistically to get those movements into your natural fighting ability. One punch/kick to a certain area is not going to stop an attacker in most cases but more or less make them mad. But as TKD practioners we dont even know that because no one has ever tried this stuff out.
As I have said before, every TKD dojo I have went to has kids that are black belts and good portion of the students who are high belts are out of shape. I am not speaking for everyone though. Each school I was at also had some advanced students that could really kick butt. Now I have checked out several bjj schools. Pretty much all of the students were in great shape and athletic. They sparred full speed to actually practice what was learned to see if it could actually defend you. They were in great shape because their classes made you work out a lot. You practice against big and small sized people with different abilities. Plus all of the high belts were adults who could really kick some butt and had proved it in competition.
Now do I think TKD is bad or am I trying to put it down, NO. I am just trying to point out misconceptions that are unfortunately taught to its students.
Hey John,
This is my sentiment - exactly. I've visited many TKD schools, apart from the two I had trained. It would seem, since time has lasped, that TKD, became more sport - kid - family oriented. In other words, when I had studied it from two different instructors, with different school, back then, there were low kicks, takedowns, grabs, taking the fight to the ground, clinch, knees, elbows, headbutts, grappling, etc. These things were on a different curriculum/routine. There were even separate self defense routines/curriculums. Now, it seems that all anyone wants to do is have fun and get pretty colorful belts, patches, pins, etc.
Some of these recent TKD schools seem to be "after-school - evening daycare". In some aspects, it even seems like a "fad" or activity that everyone (per soccer moms) need to get into, even if it is for a brief moment.
To reiterate, TKD was a complete art, made up of other Korean arts, until bureaucracy reared its ugly head.
Very few TKD schools train apart from the misconception of TKD - the sport.
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
I never said we couldnt punch to the face. I never said using hands or punching to the face was not TKD. Where are you seeing that in my post? Please show me. Both of my schools allowed us to punch to the face. It was the fact that there were no or few elbow/knees, no clinch, no throws, no ground, no joint locks. Does you school allow that stuff in sparring? If not, then it is sport, not real. Does you school train that? From your post, it appears that it does not, but you do kick below the waist.
TKD is great for creating the distance. It is not a complete art and therefore you need to crosstrain in other things like judo/bjj. Just as if you train bjj, you should do a stand up. The difference is that in bjj you are training to really fight. TKD has a lot of moves that are not useful for sparring or real fighting and it creates a false sense of security that i think is dangerous. I dont blame the art for this, I blame teachers who dont tell their students that they are not trained fighters. I think many TKD students believe they are trained fighters and watch too many movies and not enough NHB matches. If your TKD school trains the way Muay Tai guys train, then you are probably really training to fight. I have never heard of TKD schools that train like that though and if they did, they would be cutting out a lot their moves because a lot of them arent for real fighting.
there is no such thing as a complete art. there is nothing wrong with doing a striking art, then doing a grappling art. and yes we do elbow, and knee strikes. but remember, because you not do elbow or knee strikes in training doesnt mean you can do them at all, or practice them.
your not listening. when did you do tkd. if you did it in the past 15 to 20 years then you wont know wat i mean. tkd used to be very much different. we have all of the tkd storeotyped moves like spinning back kicks as well. we did the forms differnece is we trained to fight for real, not sport. thses rules in place now were probably made to get costumers. this is how i trained, i know of others who have trained saame way, in other countries as well, during the same time period.
you said no knees, elbows, headbutts, and clinch work. any simple self defense, or martial art school should show use these to the minumum. we did a litle groundwork as well.like i aid we sparred with anything goes, that was our teachers way, he would say "if anyone not like is is too hard then leave" thats how is teacher tained him. too many people think tkd only kick, nothing else. theyre mistakened.
Last edited by SirokiFighter; 04-26-2008 at 11:21 AM.
Reason: typos
This is my sentiment - exactly. I've visited many TKD schools, apart from the two I had trained. It would seem, since time has lasped, that TKD, became more sport - kid - family oriented. In other words, when I had studied it from two different instructors, with different school, back then, there were low kicks, takedowns, grabs, taking the fight to the ground, clinch, knees, elbows, headbutts, grappling, etc. These things were on a different curriculum/routine. There were even separate self defense routines/curriculums. Now, it seems that all anyone wants to do is have fun and get pretty colorful belts, patches, pins, etc.
Some of these recent TKD schools seem to be "after-school - evening daycare". In some aspects, it even seems like a "fad" or activity that everyone (per soccer moms) need to get into, even if it is for a brief moment.
To reiterate, TKD was a complete art, made up of other Korean arts, until bureaucracy reared its ugly head.
Very few TKD schools train apart from the misconception of TKD - the sport.
what i trying to say. tkd has not always been this way.
it changed over time.
what i trying to say. tkd has not always been this way.
it changed over time.
Interesting stuff. I never knew is changed so much. I wonder if it will ever go back to the those ways? Probably not for the most part as there is much more money in family martial arts.
Interesting stuff. I never knew is changed so much. I wonder if it will ever go back to the those ways? Probably not for the most part as there is much more money in family martial arts.
yes i agree with you. i wont change, and if so not any time soon. there are schools though that have never changed though.
From what I have seen, TKD does not include that stuff, so those schools are borrowing from other arts, which I think is great but its not really TKD and some think it is.
A school that isn't teaching this stuff isn't teaching all of TKD. They are still teaching TKD, they are just leaving stuff out.
Although, I will say that traditional TKD has way more attacks with feet than with hands and the clinch ground techniques are very limited, mostly to getting back up to your feet.
A school that isn't teaching this stuff isn't teaching all of TKD. They are still teaching TKD, they are just leaving stuff out.
Although, I will say that traditional TKD has way more attacks with feet than with hands and the clinch ground techniques are very limited, mostly to getting back up to your feet.
thats fine. every art has its focus, but evry art should have other aspects, whick tkd back in the day had.
i agree whem people leave out hand strikes,knee strikes, elbow strikes, and headbutts, they arnt teaching actual tkd, let alone self defense.
what i trying to say. tkd has not always been this way.
it changed over time.
I have seen these changes....
Quote:
Originally Posted by john55
Interesting stuff. I never knew is changed so much. I wonder if it will ever go back to the those ways? Probably not for the most part as there is much more money in family martial arts.
Yes, people of certain ages (not from lack of intelligence, but not being born-around) will not have seen the changes over time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirokiFighter
yes i agree with you. i wont change, and if so not any time soon. there are schools though that have never changed though.
You never changed from decades, or those now wont change?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapel
A school that isn't teaching this stuff isn't teaching all of TKD. They are still teaching TKD, they are just leaving stuff out.
Although, I will say that traditional TKD has way more attacks with feet than with hands and the clinch ground techniques are very limited, mostly to getting back up to your feet.
I would say the Traditional TKD, has EQUAL methods with hands and feet. And I dont think it is a matter of "leaving things out", as much as poor teachers not learning/teaching enough, thus creating same future teachers....
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirokiFighter
thats fine. every art has its focus, but evry art should have other aspects, whick tkd back in the day had.
i agree whem people leave out hand strikes,knee strikes, elbow strikes, and headbutts, they arnt teaching actual tkd, let alone self defense.
The limitation is within the instructor, and whom that had studied. Thus, those current ones, limit future instructors.
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
Yes, people of certain ages (not from lack of intelligence, but not being born-around) will not have seen the changes over time.
You never changed from decades, or those now wont change?
I would say the Traditional TKD, has EQUAL methods with hands and feet. And I dont think it is a matter of "leaving things out", as much as poor teachers not learning/teaching enough, thus creating same future teachers....
The limitation os within the instructor, and whom that had studied. Thus, those current ones, limit future instructors.
woops sorry. well i havent changed. of course. but now wont change. it wont change back to old ways. not anytime soon at least
Last edited by SirokiFighter; 04-26-2008 at 12:15 PM.
Reason: typos
Styles: Western Boxing, Tai Chi, Animal Form Kung Fu, and Wing Chun
Posts: 1,933
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John55, has a point that I strongly agree with. Many schools, not just TKD, do not train realistically, but convince thier students that they are prepared for a street confrontation. Its akin to giving a soldier a gun loaded with blanks and sending him to war. Very foolish and very bad for the soldier.
These type of schools out-number the schools that train realistically by a great margin. However , they do serve a purpose. They are a gateway to the martial arts for many people. This is thier introduction. A few will grow enough and lose enough ego to look outside of thier McDojo to find real teaching. Most will not, and that's fine too. These poorly taught schools act as kind of a filter. I'm not sure this filter effect is enough to make up for the negative effect on the student though.
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