Old but intresting research.

[complete]

I understand. You have came to your conclusion based on your own personal experience. And you will operate under this understanding until someone else can prove you otherwise. I can respect that and I'm sure most people, including myself operate this way.

Others have also came to their conclusion based on their experience, whether right or wrong. And since everybody's experience may be different, sometimes they probably come to different conclusion than you and I.

So, who's right? I think you are going to say one with the most facts. I would agree with this as well.

Then, how do you put value of correctness on one's experience vs. other's experience?

Another words, one might say based on my exposure to 10 schools in my area, I came to this conclusion. What if another person from totally different area say, based on my exposure to 20 schools in my area, I came to this conclusion.

Who's right?

[natalieann]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

I get what you're driving at, and I would agree with you that I also get irritated with armchair experts telling everyone their perceived versions of things without truly knowing.

So let me phrase it in a different way.

My theory, one being based upon my own personal experiences from what I can see around me in my given area, is that most TKD schools in America are more focused on their kids programs than they are on their adult programs.

The second part of that theory is that, also based upon my own personal experience, most of these kids programs are big on teaching kids things like discipline and respect and other esoteric concepts. This is one of the reasons parents like to sign their kids up for programs like this.

Given that this my own personal theory, I will continue to assume this theory is correct until proven otherwise with empirical data taken by polling a majority of TKS and Karate schools across the United States. Should me theory prove incorrect then I will obviously change my theory.

I came to the same theory and conclusion based upon my experience and exposure. The problem we have here is that most TKD schools are geared towards kids as this is their bread and butter. Many TKDists do not like to admit this as it may seem to degrade their art as that of a kid type.

[TRIANGLEFROMGUARD]

In Chicago and NWI it's pretty much the same most of the TKD schools cater to kids. I remember a couple of schools that didn't but they all closed down. Not saying it's a bad thing you gotta make money and keep the doors open. Just saying it is a thing.

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by complete

I understand. You have came to your conclusion based on your own personal experience. And you will operate under this understanding until someone else can prove you otherwise. I can respect that and I'm sure most people, including myself operate this way.

Others have also came to their conclusion based on their experience, whether right or wrong. And since everybody's experience may be different, sometimes they probably come to different conclusion than you and I.

So, who's right? I think you are going to say one with the most facts. I would agree with this as well.

Then, how do you put value of correctness on one's experience vs. other's experience?

Another words, one might say based on my exposure to 10 schools in my area, I came to this conclusion. What if another person from totally different area say, based on my exposure to 20 schools in my area, I came to this conclusion.

Who's right?

If someone said that, it would change my ideas on my theory, actually. However....

Originally Posted by natalieann

I came to the same theory and conclusion based upon my experience and exposure. The problem we have here is that most TKD schools are geared towards kids as this is their bread and butter. Many TKDists do not like to admit this as it may seem to degrade their art as that of a kid type.

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGUARD

In Chicago and NWI it's pretty much the same most of the TKD schools cater to kids. I remember a couple of schools that didn't but they all closed down. Not saying it's a bad thing you gotta make money and keep the doors open. Just saying it is a thing.

this isn't helping NOT change my mind!

[natalieann]

It is, what it is. Facts and data is difficult to undermind if it is happening in more places with more people observing the same thing.

[complete]

Originally Posted by Joemoplata

If someone said that, it would change my ideas on my theory, actually. However....





this isn't helping NOT change my mind!

I don't think you are reading my posts correctly. I am NOT trying to say TKD schools don't cater to kids. I'm actually agreeing with you.

I was merely pointing out that sometimes you might be operating based on limited information and others who might have a different view might actually have more data and information. Which you said you would be open to change your mind if someone were to provide the proof. However, sometimes when things are based on experience only and non-tangible, it just comes down to opinion versus opinion and who's to say who's opinion is right?

[TKD&JKD]

My school is Prob about 60 percent Adults.

[natalieann]

Originally Posted by TKD&JKD

My school is Prob about 60 percent Adults.

If this is mainly a TKD school, it is one out of thousands which are not.

[TRIANGLEFROMGUARD]

Originally Posted by complete

I don't think you are reading my posts correctly. I am NOT trying to say TKD schools don't cater to kids. I'm actually agreeing with you.

I was merely pointing out that sometimes you might be operating based on limited information and others who might have a different view might actually have more data and information. Which you said you would be open to change your mind if someone were to provide the proof. However, sometimes when things are based on experience only and non-tangible, it just comes down to opinion versus opinion and who's to say who's opinion is right?

That would be me.

[ladyfighter]

Originally Posted by natalieann

If this is mainly a TKD school, it is one out of thousands which are not.

what style is it you train in?

Originally Posted by TRIANGLEFROMGUARD

That would be me.

you always think you right lol


As far as the data.. well, kids do benefit from martial arts regardless of style. Most TMA schools have larger kids classes, because of various reasons.. I think most mma schools have more adults because they usually do not cater to kids, except for the few exceptions. Which I think you're going to find in ANY style. As for tkd or tma schools being day care centers.. yes many are.... we are NOT!! I like to think that we make the 'exception' in Joe's experience

[Basho]

Most teachers who open schools have to make their money somewhere, Joe. And the fact of the matter is that most adults are too busy with other things to make MA a part of their lives. (My TSD school is about half and half.) And most children aren't quite ready for MA training without moral instruction of some sort. Do you think it's a good idea to teach children that young nothing but the combat aspect?

It just seems like that if you had no knowledge of a TKD school other than the fact that it IS a TKD school you'd assume it's jsut a daycare. Which isn't true.

I know you're not that narrow minded, of course. I see you as being very cerebral. But I think it's best not to judge a whole style unless you have had years of experience in that style. As long as you limit judgment to a specific school, I guess I don't have a problem.

[souldrum71]

If I'm estimating correctly, I'd say Lady Fighter's and my dojang is about half kids under 12 and half teens and adults. We also have an adult only class that has been slowly growing since we started it at the beginning of the year. However, as most of you know, we aren't exactly the typical TKD dojang. Our junior classes are structured differently from our teen/adult classes, and our adult only classes are far different as well.

I don't see a problem with having a children's MA program as long as it is kid-specific and you're not just selling belts or baby-sitting. Unfortunately, many TKD and karate schools don't see a need to differentiate, and they perpetuate the stereotype further. We compete against some schools like this in open tournaments and usually wipe the floors with their students because they're not really teaching good MA skills to the kids.

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by Basho

Most teachers who open schools have to make their money somewhere, Joe. And the fact of the matter is that most adults are too busy with other things to make MA a part of their lives. (My TSD school is about half and half.) And most children aren't quite ready for MA training without moral instruction of some sort. Do you think it's a good idea to teach children that young nothing but the combat aspect?

It just seems like that if you had no knowledge of a TKD school other than the fact that it IS a TKD school you'd assume it's jsut a daycare. Which isn't true.

I know you're not that narrow minded, of course. I see you as being very cerebral. But I think it's best not to judge a whole style unless you have had years of experience in that style. As long as you limit judgment to a specific school, I guess I don't have a problem.

I think, again, you're reading more into what I posted than what I meant. At what point did I knock TKD? I didn't. I just said that most TKD schools IN MY EXPERIENCE tend to be more catered towards kids. And obviously with kids you are not going to be teaching them self defense so it is going to be watered down. Plus, what do you think most parents say when they bring their kids into a Martial Arts school?

"I would like my son/daughter to learn more discipline/self control/respect/(fill in the blank)".

What does the adult say when they come in for themselves?

"I would like to get in better shape/learn self defense/find a hobby/(fill in the blank)".

In my other career we would call this two different product lines. Each one may be similar but because the target audience is different you structure the material, marketing, and sales completely differently.

Now interestingly enough you are making a very big assumption in your post, even though you specifically warn me about making assumptions about an art I have never trained it. Let me ask you this Basho:

Have you ever been in a BJJ school? Have you ever spent any time in an MMA class or gym? What about a Judo school? Are you familiar with these types of arts at all? Because if you were, you would know that these types of gyms can be widly successful catering specifically to an adult audience. So when you say that Martial Arts schools need to make their money somewhere and the truth is that adults are too busy to train is incorrect.
They are too busy to train in something that is being marketed for kids, yes. But in something that caters to their needs? No.

Ask Ladyfighter and Souldrum how they're doing it. Ask me how I'm doing it. Ask Trianglefromguard how he's doing it. My school has 1 kid, and he's 14. Know why he came to me? He literally told me that after doing TKD for 8 years he's bored with it and wants to learn to fight. Not my words, bro...those are his words.

I have spent the past 10 years or so of my life living in all kinds of dojos including TKD/Karate, Judo, Aikido, Muay Thai, Capoeira and JJJ because we usually partner with these types of places to teach BJJ. So I very familiar with all types of training methodologies and Martial Arts. Can you say the same?

I'm not taking some wild stab at this, denouncing TKD and Karate schools are nothing more than day care centers. I'm saying that many have gone that direction because they can be more successful this way. It is a RARITY when they haven't is my conclusion based on my own experience. When I hear of one that isn't doing this, then I have a great appreciation for what they are trying to do because that means they are in it for the "right" reasons as far as I am concerned.

Do you think I would really spend all the money I am going to spend to fly myself and my girlfriend to Alabama to train with Souldrum and Ladyfighter if I didn't have great respect for them and how they train?

[Basho]

...

You're right.

Suffice it to say I wasn't attacking your character. I'm just overly touchy about it. I have a bad tendency to interpret anything that's said negatively about older varieties of TMA as a personal attack on my own.

Sounds like your friend was definitely at the wrong place. Or wasn't training in the right way. I have a lot of confidence in these arts with the right instructor and a proper attitude; I can't believe that anyone who spends 8 years at a GOOD school would walk away without feeling like they've made progress.

I understand how that relates to your point, now. My apologies for overreacting.



On a side note, I hope to get a little experience in BJJ. I met a Brit at a party in Tupelo that trains in Saltillo. He invited me to his Saturday classes.

[Joemoplata]

Originally Posted by Basho

...

You're right.

Suffice it to say I wasn't attacking your character. I'm just overly touchy about it. I have a bad tendency to interpret anything that's said negatively about older varieties of TMA as a personal attack on my own.

Sounds like your friend was definitely at the wrong place. Or wasn't training in the right way. I have a lot of confidence in these arts with the right instructor and a proper attitude; I can't believe that anyone who spends 8 years at a GOOD school would walk away without feeling like they've made progress.

I understand how that relates to your point, now. My apologies for overreacting.



On a side note, I hope to get a little experience in BJJ. I met a Brit at a party in Tupelo that trains in Saltillo. He invited me to his Saturday classes.

No worries, I didn't think you were attacking my character! I thought you may have thought I was specifically knocking TKD as an art which I'm really not.