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Well, judging by your profile, you practice mostly grappling arts. that would probably be why you're not into kata or poomsae. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think ANY grappling arts use poomsae. Only striking arts.
Not all striking arts practice it either.
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Granted, but I never said they did, either. I don't think Muay thai practices kata, or and I KNOW western arts like boxing and kickboxing don't. But my statement still stands.
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Of course not every art would practice them; they are hardly relevent to many of the forms out there. That does not in any way detract from their relevence to the arts which DO practice them, nor does the fact that they do not "do it" for everyone.
Of course not every art would practice them; they are hardly relevent to many of the forms out there. That does not in any way detract from their relevence to the arts which DO practice them, nor does the fact that they do not "do it" for everyone.
Thank you. My point exactly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaliMisho
Judo is a grappling art that has Kata. Although I don't believe its a very big part of the art.
Huh. See, I didn't know that. What kind of techniques make up the kata themselves? Because Judo doesn't even allow striking, does it?
__________________ A warrior may choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.
Personally i do not see the point in practising kata when correct technique can not be learned without an opponent, correct body posture etc. for a throw can only be learned from repeated practice on an opponent as quite frankly the air does not have the same resistance, therefore skip out the middle man(air) and go straight for the guy breathing
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alot of grappling arts do kata but the concept is different. grappling in jujutsu are 2 person drills on a technique. styles like taijutsu have kata
but in addition to the drills they are 2 step techniques that can be drilled with or without a partner and not the choreographed form found in other styles.
the choreographed forms that are done in tkd, karate, kung fu do have thier uses that the practioner can benefit from but we've been through this many times. this is just a thread about what ones favorite forms happen to be.
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Personally i do not see the point in practising kata when correct technique can not be learned without an opponent, correct body posture etc. for a throw can only be learned from repeated practice on an opponent as quite frankly the air does not have the same resistance, therefore skip out the middle man(air) and go straight for the guy breathing
In the case of things like throws, then no, of course a Poomsae/Kata will not help your technique. For things like strikes and blocks, however, they do serve a purpose. True, they are not combat geared and do not offer the resistance you need to train your stirkes to be effective against an opponent, but then again, that was never the focus.
A poomsae is meant to teach discipline, focus and self-control. You learn to pay close attention to every part of your body, down to the minute details. (Am I looking in the right direction? Are my shoulders squared off correctly? Is my unused hand hanging limply, or held at my belt/waist?) They put additional emphasis on balance as well, and force you to focus on things like the precision of your stances, which you wouldn't be working on in the sparring ring. (Tiger stance would hardly be an effective stance to choose with an opponent rushing at you, after all.)
To be able to stike an opponent with effective force is one thing, but to show the same techniques in a poomsae demonstrates that you not only have the strength, but also control over your strength. You are showing that you can place your kicks, strikes, and blocks precicely and with appropriate force, without said force throwing you off balance. That also does not mean that no force is used. Poomsae are to be approached with due diligence, and every movement should show solid conviction.
Poomsae are also a part of training which becomes quite personal. Yes, you will have a master/instructor who will guide you and correct you, but the majority of the time you will be practicing on your own, and it is up to you to take each correction into account and focus on incorporating it.
Because something is not an effective combat technique, or is not trained directly in combat, does not mean it serves no real purpose. Some things are simply meant as exercises, whether to train the body or discipline the mind. I wouldn't start doing push-ups if somebody attacked me on the street, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be part of my training.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyKate
In the case of things like throws, then no, of course a Poomsae/Kata will not help your technique. For things like strikes and blocks, however, they do serve a purpose. True, they are not combat geared and do not offer the resistance you need to train your stirkes to be effective against an opponent, but then again, that was never the focus.
A poomsae is meant to teach discipline, focus and self-control. You learn to pay close attention to every part of your body, down to the minute details. (Am I looking in the right direction? Are my shoulders squared off correctly? Is my unused hand hanging limply, or held at my belt/waist?) They put additional emphasis on balance as well, and force you to focus on things like the precision of your stances, which you wouldn't be working on in the sparring ring. (Tiger stance would hardly be an effective stance to choose with an opponent rushing at you, after all.)
To be able to stike an opponent with effective force is one thing, but to show the same techniques in a poomsae demonstrates that you not only have the strength, but also control over your strength. You are showing that you can place your kicks, strikes, and blocks precicely and with appropriate force, without said force throwing you off balance. That also does not mean that no force is used. Poomsae are to be approached with due diligence, and every movement should show solid conviction.
Poomsae are also a part of training which becomes quite personal. Yes, you will have a master/instructor who will guide you and correct you, but the majority of the time you will be practicing on your own, and it is up to you to take each correction into account and focus on incorporating it.
Because something is not an effective combat technique, or is not trained directly in combat, does not mean it serves no real purpose. Some things are simply meant as exercises, whether to train the body or discipline the mind. I wouldn't start doing push-ups if somebody attacked me on the street, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be part of my training.
MandyKate, for you forms are something you appreciate and enjoy. So for you, everything you said is correct. However, for others, combat application is the main reason they study. For those people, intricate forms that have little to do with training for actual combat are a waste of time, because that isn't why they study.
For those that wonder if thier forms are useful for combat training, do you use what is in the forms when placed in a full contact situation, or do you instead go to the 'kickboxing thing'? Of course this test is for those that have done thier forms for a while.
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Are there any Bunkai here who are gunna jump on this?
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Huh. See, I didn't know that. What kind of techniques make up the kata themselves? Because Judo doesn't even allow striking, does it?
I'm not entirely sure, maybe one of the Judo guys could help here, but I think they do have some strikes in their kata, although strikes aren't allowed in competition. This link may be able to help out, I haven't looked at it though, but the rest of the site is pretty decent. Forms of Judo: Kata
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I'm not entirely sure, maybe one of the Judo guys could help here, but I think they do have some strikes in their kata, although strikes aren't allowed in competition. This link may be able to help out, I haven't looked at it though, but the rest of the site is pretty decent. Forms of Judo: Kata
It looks like they're mostly two-man drills, rather than kata as we in taekwondo or karate know them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensei Tom OBrien
I love Koryo!
Thanks,
Tom
Hey, look, we're back on topic. It seems that koryo is by far the favorite so far.
__________________ A warrior may choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.
I could definately see myself learning that new WTF form if just because of the demonstration there. It always looks so cool when you get several really sharp people in nearly perfect time with each other.
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[quote=MandyKate;137123][quote=WC_Lun;137100]MandyKate, for you forms are something you appreciate and enjoy. So for you, everything you said is correct. However, for others, combat application is the main reason they study. For those people, intricate forms that have little to do with training for actual combat are a waste of time, because that isn't why they study.
Quote:
And I did acknowledge that. I wasn't in any way saying that they were necessary or even applicable to everyone. I was simply stating that you also can't call them useless on the whole because you yourself don't find them useful. Others, such as myself, do find they have a purpose. I was defending my own position versus the assumption that because something is not designed for combat, it should be treated as a waste of time and energy in general, as opposed to on an individual basis.
Looks like we find a common ground we can agree on
My Favorite Poomsae
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