You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.
And no, I don't personally find them useful training for combat situations, either. Some of the techniques ARE the same basic techniques that one might use, but showier and less effective versions, generally with a wider (and therefore slower) range of motion.
They do help with precision in technique and with focusing on a certain aspeect of your technique, though.
How do you know the technique is correct unless practicing it on a live opponent as much as you practise on the air, and i know a lot of clubs do do mostly katas and then throw in minimul amounts of sparring.
Okay, now we're just going around in circles here.
Look, if your focus is combat technique, will a pattern help you? No. Is it useless to you? probably.
But because they aren't combat-oriented, does that make them useless to everyone? Also no.
We can sit here and go back and forth 'til we're all blue in the face over their usefulness, and at the end of the day we'll probably all be in the same place. If they don't further your goals in martial arts, then they aren't for you, fine. But the fact that they are in the air and not on an opponent doesn't detract from the fact that they are still a useful training mechanism for some. Nobody is trying to say that they serve a purpose for everyone.
As to how you know the technique is correct; you're still assuming that patterns have anything to do with combat. They don't. You aren't trying to demonstrate how effective a fighter you are - that's done in the sparring ring. It's a little more like a dance, in a way. How do you know a dance move is correct? Because it has correct posture, placement, balance, direction, etc. It's the same thing in a pattern. As to placement, it's generally assumed that you're striking at someone your own size, so you place your strikes relative to your own body.
Okay, now we're just going around in circles here.
Look, if your focus is combat technique, will a pattern help you? No. Is it useless to you? probably.
But because they aren't combat-oriented, does that make them useless to everyone? Also no.
We can sit here and go back and forth 'til we're all blue in the face over their usefulness, and at the end of the day we'll probably all be in the same place. If they don't further your goals in martial arts, then they aren't for you, fine. But the fact that they are in the air and not on an opponent doesn't detract from the fact that they are still a useful training mechanism for some. Nobody is trying to say that they serve a purpose for everyone.
As to how you know the technique is correct; you're still assuming that patterns have anything to do with combat. They don't. You aren't trying to demonstrate how effective a fighter you are - that's done in the sparring ring. It's a little more like a dance, in a way. How do you know a dance move is correct? Because it has correct posture, placement, balance, direction, etc. It's the same thing in a pattern. As to placement, it's generally assumed that you're striking at someone your own size, so you place your strikes relative to your own body.
I don't think we are going around in circles at all. I agree 100% with what you're saying.
I meant more the fact that everytime somebody says, "They may not be for combat, but I still find them useful" somebody else comes in and says "but they aren't for combat." Or some variation on that, anyway. It wasn't directed at anyone personally, I'm just starting to feel like there's this crazy time loop going on. =)
I meant more the fact that everytime somebody says, "They may not be for combat, but I still find them useful" somebody else comes in and says "but they aren't for combat." Or some variation on that, anyway. It wasn't directed at anyone personally, I'm just starting to feel like there's this crazy time loop going on. =)
It's hard to say you have two different ideas on how to train so people but heads.
Forms are the art part of the martial art. They also serve as an overly theoretic way to form a basis for the movements of the art and provide some level of physical fitness when done with intensity. I do believe that mastery of an art and mastery of the forms therein go hand in hand in that students who are good at one tend to be good at both, however I would be hesitant to say that either causes the other.
Anyway, for the forms naysayers that are here... I recall something about you guys complaining about how all these TMA guys are telling you whats what in MMA when you don't come into TMA threads to tell them about TMAs... is this the exception that proves the rule, or just revenge?
Styles: Ninjutsu, Tae Kwon Do, Modern Army Combatives
Posts: 1,744
Home Country:
the '2-man drill' katas with or without weapons that are in grappling arts like Japanese juijitsu and Judo etc. are the Original way Katas were done/ concieved
they are basically collection of techniques a warrior executed and he lived to record on a scroll or oral transmission. as far as JMA goes from bujutsu to budo arts like Karate and further down the way to TKD.
speaking on KMA arts like TKD some of the forms are combative. it depends on what form curriculum your using. TKD for example as is always brought up in these debates has different orgs and affiliations to be generalized.
i currently train in warrior tkd which is oh do kwan lineage. oh do kwan is military tkd. the forms we train, the same techniques are trained to be used in combat application. you do the forms on imaginary opponents
and you do the same techniques on an opponent starting off with compliance to get the technique down and then against a fully resisting opponent.
and the same techniques with the exception of non-practical ones like a spinning hook kick for example are also done to a resisting opponent in full body armor to simulate using tkd if you end up in a hand to hand situation.
__________________
Hatsumi Sensei:
"Never stop moving. If you stop moving,you give your opponents openings and you may be killed. If you stop moving, what you are doing merely becomes a technique, not Taijutsu"
Shaka Zulu:
"A man chosen to wield life and death on the battlefield must be an artist, if he isn't, he is simply a murderer."
the '2-man drill' katas with or without weapons that are in grappling arts like Japanese juijitsu and Judo etc. are the Original way Katas were done/ concieved
they are basically collection of techniques a warrior executed and he lived to record on a scroll or oral transmission. as far as JMA goes from bujutsu to budo arts like Karate and further down the way to TKD.
speaking on KMA arts like TKD some of the forms are combative. it depends on what form curriculum your using. TKD for example as is always brought up in these debates has different orgs and affiliations to be generalized.
i currently train in warrior tkd which is oh do kwan lineage. oh do kwan is military tkd. the forms we train, the same techniques are trained to be used in combat application. you do the forms on imaginary opponents
and you do the same techniques on an opponent starting off with compliance to get the technique down and then against a fully resisting opponent.
and the same techniques with the exception of non-practical ones like a spinning hook kick for example are also done to a resisting opponent in full body armor to simulate using tkd if you end up in a hand to hand situation.
Okay, but the two man drill form of a kata isn't really the first thing most people think of when they think of a kata. At least, not most of the people I know.
Also, that sounds like a really effective training system. You like it?
Also also, a spinning hook kick hurts a lot if you get hit with it, but it's so hard to hit people with...too easy to see coming.
And I think that's it.
__________________ A warrior may choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.
Just a thought from an old guy. As you get older kata, poomsae or forms become more important. You can't take the contact on a steady basis anymore but if you do your forms you can stay in martial arts shape. When you do fight you don't lose much. You are not fighting with injuries all the time either.
Just a thought from an old guy. As you get older kata, poomsae or forms become more important. You can't take the contact on a steady basis anymore but if you do your forms you can stay in martial arts shape. When you do fight you don't lose much. You are not fighting with injuries all the time either.
Thanks,
Tom
That makes a certain amount of sense as people of different age groups tend to train martial arts for vastly different reasons. I can't imagine there are many going into MAs in their 40s looking to learn self defense or MMA.
Styles: Western Boxing, Tai Chi, Animal Form Kung Fu, and Wing Chun
Posts: 4,510
Home Country:
I just turned 40 and train for self defense. I cannot train as hard core as I want or used to, of course. However, much of self defense training is NOT the physical attribute training.
Forms are the art part of the martial art. They also serve as an overly theoretic way to form a basis for the movements of the art and provide some level of physical fitness when done with intensity. I do believe that mastery of an art and mastery of the forms therein go hand in hand in that students who are good at one tend to be good at both, however I would be hesitant to say that either causes the other.
Anyway, for the forms naysayers that are here... I recall something about you guys complaining about how all these TMA guys are telling you whats what in MMA when you don't come into TMA threads to tell them about TMAs... is this the exception that proves the rule, or just revenge?
This again is opinion.
I just wanted to bring up the Golden Child man then it went into something weird.
My Favorite Poomsae
I cannot train as hard core as I want or used to, of course. However, much of self defense training is NOT the physical attribute training.
Linear Mode
