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Old 09-07-2007, 11:43 PM   #1
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Soo Bahk Do v. Tang Soo Do

Hi

I practice Soo Bahk Do which seems exactly the same as Tang Soo Do as far as I can see. Can anyone share any insight into the differences or are there all purely political?

~~ Grading this morning at 11am - whoot!!!~~

Tracey
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Old 09-08-2007, 05:53 AM   #2
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Glad to see I'm not the only one who is confused then.
I always thought the difference was a political one, since the terms tend to be fairly interchangable.
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Old 09-08-2007, 09:54 AM   #3
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In a nutshell, they were both started by the same founder, Hwang Kee. Tang Soo Do first, then Hwang Kee changed his style to Soo Bahk Do, whereas Tang Soo Do continued on.

Hwang Kee's son, H.C. Hwang is now the head of the Soo Bahk Do organization.

Jae Chul Shin is the head of the World Tang Soo Do Association.

There are several different organizations of Tang Soo Do as well.

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Old 09-08-2007, 09:44 PM   #4
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The simple answer is they are pretty much the same thing.

Now that that is out of the way, let me start getting into the specifics. Tang Soo Do (The Way of the Tang (dynasty in China) Hand) was originally one of the Korean translations for Karate-Do during and just following the Japanese occupation of Korea from 1910-1945. Moo Duk Kwan (institute of martial virtue) was founded by GM Hwang Kee and was just one style (Kwan) of Tang Soo Do (though most looked like a Koreanized version of Japanese Shotokan Karate/Okinawan Shuri-Te Karate, which Tang Soo Do is most known for today).
In 1955, the Kwans met to consolidate their efforts and form a 'new' Korean national martial art, (orginally called Tae Soo Do, later renamed) Tae Kwon Do. GM Hwang Kee's Moo Duk Kwan refused to join up and stayed seperate.
Eventually, Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do made its way around the world, usually just called Tang Soo Do, but often changes crept in. Instructors changed forms to suit them or their understanding of the applications. Some instructors threw them out entirely. Others added 'new' moves, etc. As the changes occurred so too did political disagreements and thus people broke away to form their own federations and organizations. GM Hwang Kee wanted to keep his Moo Duk Kwan as he originally wanted it. He called for all loyal Moo Duk Kwan stylists to join the newly renamed Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan. He then introduced several new forms, the Chil Sung Hyungs (or Seven Star forms) and Yuk-Ro Hyungs. These were supposedly created from GM Hwang Kee's training in Chinese Kung Fu and his study of the Muyo Dobu Tongji, an old Korean martial manual. (Please note, I am not entirely certain the timely of when the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro were created and introduced, nor the creation of the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation due to conflicting sources, but this is in general). Most Tang Soo Do dojangs in America are likely based on earlier Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do, but they either chose not to join up with the SBD MDK federation or they belong to another organization. I hope this helps clear some things up!
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Old 09-08-2007, 10:38 PM   #5
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Nothing new to add except good luck on the grading and let us know how it went.
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Old 09-08-2007, 10:56 PM   #6
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Was the name change like when Japanese change Okinawan arts (influence from China)in order to dislodge from Chinese rots?
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Old 09-09-2007, 02:18 AM   #7
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Thank you for the information Mr Henry, it was really useful.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapel View Post
Nothing new to add except good luck on the grading and let us know how it went.
Grading went really well thank you. I would have liked some of my basic moves at the start to have 'felt' more sure (if that makes sense!). Forms, sparring and self defense all went really well, as did the breaking and korean terminology.

Was buzzing for the rest of the day - looking forward to training again this afternoon now
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Old 09-09-2007, 12:21 PM   #8
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You are welcome Clickedy. Glad your grading went well!

MartialMan47, on the name change, do you mean from Tang Soo Do to Soo Bahk Do? If so, part of it was so that GM Hwang Kee had picked up legal rights to the name Soo Bahk Do, and therefore, no one else could use it without his permission, whereas Tang Soo Do was, I believe, so used that it had become public domain (or something like that). Also, Soo Bahk Do was drawing on the old Korean Subak (an older pre-occupation era martial art that happened to be mentioned in the aforementioned Muyo Dobu Tongji). So the short answer is sort of like the Japanese change from Okinawan names, but with a few additional reasons. When the Koreans changed from Tang Soo Do and Tong Soo Do to Tae Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do, that was more like the Japanese/Okinawan change, as I understand it.
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Old 09-10-2007, 06:31 AM   #9
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wmks shogun did a pretty good job of explaining it. But to muddy the waters even more...From what I remember...The name change itself was more so to set itself apart, distinct from all the other Tang Soo Do's out there. Once SBD went with the name change, all of the TSD schools had the opportunity to unify and go with the standardized SBD. If not, then they could still be TSD, just not with the rights to names,symbols,forms, etc. So again, the name change was more to unify and set apart.

Now, the addition and subtraction of forms on the other hand was more so to break apart from their "roots". As stated, the Chil Sung and yuk ro forms were created by GM. Hwank Kee. It seems that they are slowly getting rid of forms (such as the pyung ahn forms) or making them optional because they were not created by GM Hwang Kee.

Hope that made sense

Congrats on the grading!
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Old 09-10-2007, 07:04 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiveraRa View Post
Congrats on the grading!
Thanks, passed! - Woot!! Got presented with my certificate last night after training - we usually have to wait about a week well chuffed x
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Old 10-05-2007, 07:42 AM   #11
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I thought Bahk Soo Do was a more kung fu based version of Tang Soo Do whereas Tang Soo Do is a more Karate based Korean martial art. I know they are both also called Moo Duk Kwan, which is like a combination of Bahk Soo Do and Tang Soo Do with some Tae Kwon Do!
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Old 10-05-2007, 07:53 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vajramushti View Post
I thought Bahk Soo Do was a more kung fu based version of Tang Soo Do whereas Tang Soo Do is a more Karate based Korean martial art. I know they are both also called Moo Duk Kwan, which is like a combination of Bahk Soo Do and Tang Soo Do with some Tae Kwon Do!
Your name seems to relfect Indian......

From my memory, vajra....meant thunderbolt or was a ritual tool and mushti perhaps from mukti..closed fist?
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Old 11-26-2008, 07:03 PM   #13
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The same art !!!

This is the same art with some new forms and more control over the new old name and whom can use it. (MONEY)
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Old 11-30-2008, 05:25 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmks shogun View Post
The simple answer is they are pretty much the same thing.

Now that that is out of the way, let me start getting into the specifics. Tang Soo Do (The Way of the Tang (dynasty in China) Hand) was originally one of the Korean translations for Karate-Do during and just following the Japanese occupation of Korea from 1910-1945. Moo Duk Kwan (institute of martial virtue) was founded by GM Hwang Kee and was just one style (Kwan) of Tang Soo Do (though most looked like a Koreanized version of Japanese Shotokan Karate/Okinawan Shuri-Te Karate, which Tang Soo Do is most known for today).
In 1955, the Kwans met to consolidate their efforts and form a 'new' Korean national martial art, (orginally called Tae Soo Do, later renamed) Tae Kwon Do. GM Hwang Kee's Moo Duk Kwan refused to join up and stayed seperate.
Eventually, Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do made its way around the world, usually just called Tang Soo Do, but often changes crept in. Instructors changed forms to suit them or their understanding of the applications. Some instructors threw them out entirely. Others added 'new' moves, etc. As the changes occurred so too did political disagreements and thus people broke away to form their own federations and organizations. GM Hwang Kee wanted to keep his Moo Duk Kwan as he originally wanted it. He called for all loyal Moo Duk Kwan stylists to join the newly renamed Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan. He then introduced several new forms, the Chil Sung Hyungs (or Seven Star forms) and Yuk-Ro Hyungs. These were supposedly created from GM Hwang Kee's training in Chinese Kung Fu and his study of the Muyo Dobu Tongji, an old Korean martial manual. (Please note, I am not entirely certain the timely of when the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro were created and introduced, nor the creation of the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation due to conflicting sources, but this is in general). Most Tang Soo Do dojangs in America are likely based on earlier Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do, but they either chose not to join up with the SBD MDK federation or they belong to another organization. I hope this helps clear some things up!
This makes it clear...Thnx.
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Old 08-24-2010, 07:04 AM   #15
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here in Philippines we play the game Tang Soo Do (We are now called Soo Bahk Do) this way:

YouTube - Steve Grandeza Phil. Moo Duk Kwan Full Contact Fights

This is a full contact tournament
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