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most legendary weapon of all time = THE HUMAN BODY. hands, feet, elbows, knees, shins, forearms, fingers, knuckles, head... as martial arists i thought someone would have mentioned it already
most legendary weapon of all time = THE HUMAN BODY. hands, feet, elbows, knees, shins, forearms, fingers, knuckles, head... as martial arists i thought someone would have mentioned it already
Great point, I agree with head/brain being the most important!!
Katana forged by Masamune
Considered to be the greatest Japanese swordsmith ever, Masamune created blades that were thought to generated peace and calm within the bearer. The Honjo Masamune was handed down from Shogun to Shogun ever since the Tokugawa shogunate.
Katana forged by Muramasa
Possibly the second greatest, Muramasa's blades are said to induce bloodlust in its wielders. He is said to be a student of Masamune's though the dates they likely operated in precludes their ever meeting.
Still, this created a good legend.
Muramasa once challenged Masamune to a contest to see who could forge the greatest weapon. Once the forging was done, to test the weapons, they thrust them into a stream, blade facing into the current. Muramasa's blade cut everything in its path. Fish, insects, leaves, even the air was sliced by the sword. Masamune was impressed with his student's work. He thrust his sword into the stream. Fish swam right up to the edge, then moved around it without touching the blade. Leaves, insects, even the water and air flowed around the blade rather than touch it.
Muramasa mocked his master's skill. Meanwhile, a monk who had watched the test approached and offered his opinion.
"The first of the swords was by all accounts a fine sword, however it is a blood thirsty, evil blade as it doesn't discriminate as to who or what it will cut. It may just as well be cutting down butterflies as severing heads. The second was by far the finer of the two, as it doesn't needlessly cut that which is innocent and undeserving."
The above is the most popular version of the story. It's in a couple of different books that I have read. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masamune
for a slight variation on that story, as well as several larger variations, and more info on Masamune and Muramasa
Katana forged by Masamune
Considered to be the greatest Japanese swordsmith ever, Masamune created blades that were thought to generated peace and calm within the bearer. The Honjo Masamune was handed down from Shogun to Shogun ever since the Tokugawa shogunate.
Katana forged by Muramasa
Possibly the second greatest, Muramasa's blades are said to induce bloodlust in its wielders. He is said to be a student of Masamune's though the dates they likely operated in precludes their ever meeting.
Still, this created a good legend.
Muramasa once challenged Masamune to a contest to see who could forge the greatest weapon. Once the forging was done, to test the weapons, they thrust them into a stream, blade facing into the current. Muramasa's blade cut everything in its path. Fish, insects, leaves, even the air was sliced by the sword. Masamune was impressed with his student's work. He thrust his sword into the stream. Fish swam right up to the edge, then moved around it without touching the blade. Leaves, insects, even the water and air flowed around the blade rather than touch it.
Muramasa mocked his master's skill. Meanwhile, a monk who had watched the test approached and offered his opinion.
"The first of the swords was by all accounts a fine sword, however it is a blood thirsty, evil blade as it doesn't discriminate as to who or what it will cut. It may just as well be cutting down butterflies as severing heads. The second was by far the finer of the two, as it doesn't needlessly cut that which is innocent and undeserving."
The above is the most popular version of the story. It's in a couple of different books that I have read. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masamune
for a slight variation on that story, as well as several larger variations, and more info on Masamune and Muramasa
Were Japanese blades a trial and error til thier latest perfection?
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
Combination of trial and error and utilizing any metallurgical advances brought to Japan through intermittent contact with the rest of the world. Actually, Masamune's era is considered to be the height of Japanese bladesmithing. The nation currently believes that something has been lost to the artists at some point. (This statement is made as of the 1980s. Some of this may have been reclaimed since then.)
The use of higher quality steel makes up for this in the quality of the blades, but it is an art in Japan, not a science, so loss of knowledge/ability cannot be completely be atoned for by better materials.
The use of higher quality steel makes up for this in the quality of the blades, but it is an art in Japan, not a science, so loss of knowledge/ability cannot be completely be atoned for by better materials.
Actually it could not be use of high quality steel, but the quality of iron ore.
Though knowledge/ability has to be in place in order to get the iron ore into quality steel.
Bacially, no matter the grade of material, without the knowledge to refine it, it is nothing more than a hunk of metallic rock.
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
Actually, there is access to extremely high quality steel that is used by some Western swordsmiths in making katana. The way that the Japanese forged it, with the intense folding to remove the impurities, they turned the crud-filled ore that they had access to into a good sword.
There is another way of creating swords now. By incorporating, say, Swedish powdered steel (as one of Bugei's top-of-the-line katana does), the artist may create a sword that matches, or perhaps even beats the strength of the katana of Masamune's era.
The question becomes, is this improved blade the work of the forger, or is it merely access to better quality materials? Those who make decisions about such things in Japan have decided that it is merely the materials that have improved, not the forger. (again, this info is as of the 80's. If anyone has more current info, I'd love to hear it. I plan on, at some point, purchasing a shinken, or True Sword)
Actually, there is access to extremely high quality steel that is used by some Western swordsmiths in making katana. The way that the Japanese forged it, with the intense folding to remove the impurities, they turned the crud-filled ore that they had access to into a good sword.
There is another way of creating swords now. By incorporating, say, Swedish powdered steel (as one of Bugei's top-of-the-line katana does), the artist may create a sword that matches, or perhaps even beats the strength of the katana of Masamune's era.
The question becomes, is this improved blade the work of the forger, or is it merely access to better quality materials? Those who make decisions about such things in Japan have decided that it is merely the materials that have improved, not the forger. (again, this info is as of the 80's. If anyone has more current info, I'd love to hear it. I plan on, at some point, purchasing a shinken, or True Sword)
But for true and authentic Samurai swords, it would be better to have one from the era, than one of 440 Rockwell steel.
__________________ What do I know? Since I didn't post my styles or experience, I have no experience, no knowledge, no say.
That post before mine, was that for post counting? How about the one after?
Hey, my post count has the same palaverment tone as anyone elses'
Yes (well, at least you don't want the whole thing to be 440 rockwell) The inner layer should be extremely hard, don't remember exactly how hard. The outer sides should be soft.
However, having a more pure, stronger, springier steel would produce a more efficient cutting edge, and likely one that would not break as easily.
And, I just realized, that if we are to continue this conversation, we should probably start a new thread on metallurgy.
Sorry about the hijacking of the weapons of legend thread.
Weapons of Legend
Linear Mode
